Stains and finishes with conflicting sanding instructions

[Imaginos]

After going through about 8 test boards I got the color I want for a desk I'm building. This is my first (allegedly) serious project and is designed more as a learning experience. As long as it uses the laws of physics to keep my computer and books off the floor I'll be happy. That said, I've run into a curious problem with the stains.

The process that creates the color I want on the test boards goes like this: sand to 80/120/180, then a sealer of dewaxed shellac (Bullseye Seal Coat), then General Finishes water based Merlot dye stain, lastly General Finishes Georgian Cheery gel stain. On top of that will be several coats of General Finishes Enduro-Var (durability is key--it's more of an indoor work bench for electronic projects). This is all being applied to 3/4" oak plywood and some red oak boards.

The instructions on Merlot dye stain says to sand to #150 then #220 prior to application. The gel stain says sand to no more than #150 prior to application. The Enduro-Var says sand to #220, and then #320 after staining. Putting #320 on the test board with an exposed gel stain, even very lightly, was disastrous.

So, what's to be done when combining products that have conflicting sanding instructions? What's really going on with these instruction and, most importantly, why? The test boards were all sanded with P80, P120, then P180, and then sealed and stained as above. They look fine to me (although I've not tried the varnish on the test boards yet) and that's a pretty important indicator in my mind. So what's the unintended consequence here?

[JMadson Custom Wood]

I'm hearing four different steps. First, a sealer to make sure the wood takes the stain uniformly. Second and third, adding color. Fourth, a clear coat.

Do you think you could combine the 2nd and 3rd steps with just one color? Not critical, but it could make you job easier.

I would sand up to 180 before the seal coat. Then 220 after to even out the coat. The finer the sandpaper you use at this point, the less the dye stain will adhere. You might want to test this on a sample board.

Put on the dye, let it dry. Do not sand.

Put on the gel stain lightly, add more coats until you like the color. You can always add more color but you can't take it away.

Do not sand.

Never sand after a coat that is primarily color, you'll risk taking color off the high points and edges.

Now put on a coat of your clear. After this dries, you can sand very lightly with 320. Be careful of the edges. Add a second coat. If you like it, you're done. Or you can sand again with 320 or 420. Then add one more very light clear coat in a very dust free area. This should give you the best finish.

Joe

[TimV]

I sand to 220, apply seal coat, sand with abrasive pad, stain, apply seal coat, sand with abrasive pad or 320, glaze (gel stain), apply seal coat, sand with abrasive pad or 320, apply top coats, Just about the same process that JMadson noted except I like to apply shellac between the color layers so I can sand without risk. Also, like JMadson said, never sand a color unless it is a tinted poly, shellac or lacquer.

[AceHoleInOne]

The instructions are assuming that each the dye-stain and gel stain is being applied to “raw” wood with the exception being the Enduro-Var.

Dye-stain pigments don’t require as rough a surface to hold on to. They are thinner bodied and soak into the wood. A gel-stain has large pigments (bolder appearance) and requires a rougher surface (more teeth) to bite into since they sit more on the surface.

The Enduro-Var is suggesting a 220 “mid-coat” sanding. Meaning, get your first coat of Enduro-Var on over the stain or dye or both. When dry, give it a light scuff (or better yet a wipe, because you don’t have a lot of finish on the wood to sand) using 220 paper. Lots of finishers prefer a quality 320 foam backed paper for mid-coat sands. Easy to hold on to and distributes the finger pressure better. Most can be used wet/dry sanding.

That's why we use test boards. Sanding to higher/lower grits, 1 coat of dye 2 coats of stain, 2 coats of dye 2 coats of stain. You get the picture! If your not having any issues...rock on!

-Ace-

[Imaginos]

Thanks for replies. I took pretty much all the advice here and ruined some more scrap board to test it out. I learned a good deal and wanted to share the results.

My project really has two different stained areas: the desktop, then everything else. The desktop is where I'm putting the coats of the shellac, dye, then gel to get the red/brown color. Legs, aprons, and everything else underneath is getting a single gel stain (GF Candlelite).

What I found was putting SealCoat down on either the oak or plywood before a loan gel stain stain didn't do a lot for me after sanding to 220. Under careful scrutiny it did lighten the stain and leveled out the color, but it mostly reduced the contrast against the cathedral gain and I didn't see a lot of difference with or without sanding to 220 after the seal coat. So, sand to 220 and then the gel, and I'm happy with the legs and bottom.

The desktop is still kind of on-going because there are so many possible combinations, however, the consistent theme that's emerging is to sanding to 80, 120, 180, 220, then seal coat and a very light sanding to 220 again. Next apply the dye stain and let it dry for about two days (very high humidity here in Virginia), and then the Gel stain on top of it. At that point, the color is dead on to what I want and I get a very nice grain contrast. Below is a picture of where I'm at. This is a test board from cut-off of the desktop where the solid oak (lighter stain) is joined to the plywood (darker stain) laid out on the unstained desk. Please excuse the picture quality, I didn't have my gray card (meaning the colors are not necessarily true) and I missed the focus, but you get the point.

I've not yet really got into applying the poly yet, but I'm thinking that'll be another month long process of trial and error. I don't anticipate a lot of difficulties since the whole project will be sanded to 220, more of less in alignment with the Enduro Var instructions. Overall though, I'm pretty pleased so far. I also have this great new invention that I want to share with all of you. I call it, "the wheel."