Jointer and Planer Help

[mzingali]

First post here..so go easy on me. As a noob, there are some tools i've obviously never used. Can someone explain what the jointer and planers do? I've see folks use a planer on a piece of wood to flatten out one surface but then use the jointer for the other sides. Can you not run say a 2x4 through a planer to acheive 4 flat surfaces?

With that said, I've read that people prefer to have separate machines. Any recommendations? I have a feeling that these 2 machines might need to be my first purchases..lol

Mike

[aggie4you]

First post here..so go easy on me. As a noob, there are some tools i've obviously never used. Can someone explain what the jointer and planers do? I've see folks use a planer on a piece of wood to flatten out one surface but then use the jointer for the other sides. Can you not run say a 2x4 through a planer to acheive 4 flat surfaces?

With that said, I've read that people prefer to have separate machines. Any recommendations? I have a feeling that these 2 machines might need to be my first purchases..lol

Mike

Technically, you could run it through four times to achieve four flat surfaces. While those surfaces would be flat and parallel to their opposite surfaces, they wouldn't necessarily be square. In other words, two intersecting surfaces wouldn't be perpendicular to each other.

At least, that's my understanding from my limited knowledge base (I'm a beginner too).

[SawDuster]

Hi SplinterMike and welcome to the forum. This is a good question and one that confuses many folks new to woodworking.

Jointers are used to flatten two adjacent surfaces and create a known anglular relationship between them - quite often 90 degrees. As an example, let's use your 2x4. First, let's run the width(3-1/2" side) face down on the jointer. It may take more than one pass but we will end up with a flat surface. Now, let's set the fence at 90 degrees and place the newly jointed surface against it. We'll use that one flat surface as an index to flatten an adjacent edge (1-3/4" side). Again, it may take several passes but we end up with a nice flat edge that is perpendicular to the first side we jointed. This is as far as we go with the jointer. I know it seems like we could continue with the other 2 sides, and we could flatten them this way, but they will not be parallel with the opposite faces.

Planers index from the OPPOSITE side rather than an adjacent side, thus creating parallel surfaces.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Jim Heinbuch]

The rollers on a planer which pull the board through the planer squeeze the board. So if the board is cupped it will somewhat flatten the board going through and then the board returns to its cupped configuration. If the board is twisted it will always lay flat on the bottom of the planer and follow the contour of the board and it will still come out twisted on the out side of the planer.

If you want to use the planer to truly flatten a board you need to put it on a sled and support it all along the length of the board so the rollers don't push it out of shape.

Check the web for "planer sleds."

Also watch Marc's video #6, "The Jointer's Jumpin" for a four step process to flatten boards using the jointer, planer and tablesaw (or bandsaw).

[Beechwood Chip]

Here's what I posted about three days ago...

Generally, you joint one face and then use the thickness planer to do the other face. Here's why...

Parallel is not the same as flat / straight. The white dashed lines on a highway are parallel, even when you go around a turn.

Straight is not the same as parallel. The two foul lines on a baseball diamond are both straight, but they are not parallel.

The jointer makes things straight / flat, but doesn't make them parallel. The thickness planer makes one face parallel to the other face, but doesn't make them straight.

To get two faces that are both straight / flat and parallel, you first make one face straight / flat on the jointer, and then use the thickness planer to make the other face parallel to the flat one.

If you just used the jointer, you can end up with a wedge shaped board, with the faces straight but not parallel.

If you just used the planer, you can end up with a bowed board, with one curved face exactly matching the other curved face.

I'll add that a jointer will also make one face square (90 degrees) to another. So, if you joint two adjacent faces and then plane the other two you will end up with square and parallel stock.

[Ben H]

I'll give it a stab.

Let's start with the jointer, since it is your first step in stock preparation. When you run a board across the jointer (face side/wide part of the board), you will flatten that face. You'll then flip the board 90 degrees and place the now flat face against the fence. Run the edge and you now have two sides finished. This is where the jointer's job is done. It can do many more things, but most guys I know never use those other features. It's kinda a one trick pony.

When using a planer, keep in mind the cutter-head reference's from the bed below them. Meaning if what you feed though the planer is not flat, it will mirror what you send through. Hence the reason for using the jointer first. If the board is flat, the planer will make the other side flat & parallel to the face that the jointer created. It's always a good idea, once you get both sides planed, to flip the board as you plane. Now you have a board that has 3 sides surfaced.

Take your board to the table saw and rip the last side down to width. You now have a board that is s4s (Surfaced 4 Sides).

If I have confused you, please say so and I'll try to describe it with more detail.

[mzingali]

I'll give it a stab.

Let's start with the jointer, since it is your first step in stock preparation. When you run a board across the jointer (face side/wide part of the board), you will flatten that face. You'll then flip the board 90 degrees and place the now flat face against the fence. Run the edge and you now have two sides finished. This is where the jointer's job is done. It can do many more things, but most guys I know never use those other features. It's kinda a one trick pony.

When using a planer, keep in mind the cutter-head reference's from the bed below them. Meaning if what you feed though the planer is not flat, it will mirror what you send through. Hence the reason for using the jointer first. If the board is flat, the planer will make the other side flat & parallel to the face that the jointer created. It's always a good idea, once you get both sides planed, to flip the board as you plane. Now you have a board that has 3 sides surfaced.

Take your board to the table saw and rip the last side down to width. You now have a board that is s4s (Surfaced 4 Sides).

If I have confused you, please say so and I'll try to describe it with more detail.

Wow, thank you everyone! At first I was thinking that if I use a jointer to make 2 adjacent sides flat and at 90 degrees, why couldn't I keep going and use the 2nd surface to make the 3rd surface (the other wide surface) also flat at 90 degrees. If side 1 and side 2 are at 90 degrees..and I use side 2 to make side 3 flat at 90 degrees..then wouldn't the opposing side 1 and 3 be flat and parallel? I understand that I could end up with a wedge if the angle isn't correct but if the fence is truly at 90 degrees the whole time, wouldn't opposing surfaces be parallel? Just wondering, not trying to argue with anyone. Maybe I'm not seeing how the surfaces wouldn't be parallel.

Now as to both of your explanations, I do see how using the jointer first, then planar would give parallel surfaces. It just seems like if the fence on the jointer was in fact at 90 degrees...all 4 surfaces would be at 90 degrees..making opposing surfaces parallel.

I'm all ears guys..and open to suggestions for which brands/models of jointers and planars you recommend.

Mike

[Ben H]

They will be flat, just not parallel if you mill all four sides with jointer. Think of a wedge. If you have a board that is rough cut thicker at one end than the other, the jointer has no way of knowing how thick the board is. It's only gonna make it flat, not even. And yes, all four sides can still be at 90 degrees and the board will not be parallel. Make sense?

As far as the tools themselves go, it really depends on your budget. I will say this, IMHO, the minimum sized jointer I would purchase is a 8". I'm still mad at myself for not pulling the trigger on the 8", instead of the 6 I bought". Never fails, every board I buy is 6.5 inches wide.

[trimbleepic]

Ok, let me take a try at this. Here is My Understanding...

Let's look at this image:

The first board was created on a Jointer. Note that Edge I and Edge II are both exactly 90 degrees, making Side 1 square to Side 2, and Side 2 square to Side 3... However, Side 1 and Side 3 are NOT parallel. This is what Marc means when he says that your wood could come out looking like a wedge.

A Jointer has a long DEAD FLAT table that is used as a reference flat surface for getting your board flat. It typically has no mechanism to compare opposing sides to each other, so it's not capable of making parallel sides.

The second board was created in a Planer. Side A is parallel to Side B, but neither side is straight or flat.

A Planer may have an infeed and outfeed table, but it doesn't use those tables for referencing the board against flat. It only uses those tables to keep the board from falling to the floor during it's operation. Instead, the Planer uses Rollers that are a measured distance from the cutter head. A board is sent between the rollers and cutter so that the opposite side of the board that it's working on becomes it's reference for flatness. So, if the reference side of the board is curved, then the planer will happily cut the opposite side to exactly match the curve of the reference side so that the Thickness is the same across the length of the board - curved or not.

The ideal situation for the Planer is that the reference side of the board is already dead flat, a condition that only the Jointer can create. This is why these two machines must work together to properly square up your lumber.

Many people ask which they should get first - the Planer or the Jointer... That's a lot like having a steak, and asking which one you should get first - the Knife, or the Fork. You really do need both. And, ideally, they are two seperate tools.

[Onboard]

Jointers and Planers confuse me also. I have a question or two that I hope will contribute the answering Mike’s question and straighten my thinking out as well.

If I have a kiln dried but rough sawn board (I’m assuming the width is uniform from end to end), I read that I should run one edge through the jointer first. I’m visualizing the width/face of the board up against the fence to keep it steady, as the edge is planed, and at a 90 deg. relative angle. Okay, to me that is simply flattening the edge of the board and not necessarily creating a 90 deg. angle between the width/face of the board and the edge. My reasoning is that the rough surface of the width side of the board is not tracking perfectly at 90 deg. to the edge as the board is fed through the jointer. In fact any slight warpage across the width would cause the board to angle back and forth as it’s fed through. To me, this would yield a variable angle relative to the edge and side of the board. Perhaps there are multiple instances of 90 deg. relative, or an average of 90 deg..

Now, I’m picturing laying the face of the board that was against the fence onto the bed and running it through the jointer. Now after a pass or two or three, I have a flat surface. However, as the board feeds through the jointer, the side being planed (on the jointer) is referencing the previously planed edge which is not uniformly 90 degrees all the way down the board (for reasons stated above), in addition it is a small reference plane (the board thickness).

I may have gaps in my thinking (above) but I was wondering that if I’m somewhat correct, wouldn’t that tell me that I should run the board through the planer first to create a single large flat reference surface for the jointing operation (one side). At this point I’m not concerned about being parallel, I just want a flat surface. I assume after jointing the edge, after the planer operation, that I would then run the board through the planer again to yield two parallel sides or faces (not edges). I would also have one edge that is not milled at this point. Here’s where I read that I should run this edge through the table saw to rip to width, and then back through the jointer to smooth the edge and put it at 90 deg. to the two face surfaces.

I used rough lumber as an example to bring out some thoughts on the matter, but I know that a lot of lumber is purchased already surfaced on one or two faces. Assuming it’s truly flat, then I guess I could go straight to the jointer first to mill the board edge, knowing I had a flat, warp free, non-rough reference surface against the jointer fence.

I would appreciate it if someone would point out the errors of my thoughts. I may get this right yet.

[mzingali]

All of these explanations are great! Ty guys for explaining. Now for the next part..lol..the actual machines. I don't necessarily want to get machines that are beasts due to my current limited space. Also, I would like to stay with machines that utilize our normal 110 volt outlets.

With that said, what do you guys recommend for a jointer and a planer? What brand? Being a rookie at this stuff, would 6" be suffice for me for now? I don't see myself in the near future doing huge projects that would require me to have garage sized machines..lol

I've been reading reviews from Ridgid's jointer/planer to Jet and Powermatic models. Please advise. I forsee myself making small projects for a while in my current garage and the next house but maybe in ~10 years or so, I can get a stand alone shop and have it designed nicely from the ground up. By then, I'd probably be ready for the bigger tools.

Right now, space is my biggest issue. I have currently: 12" miter saw, 9" bandsaw (from neighbor), drills, some clamps, and a router.

I'm thinking jointer, planer, and drill press is next in line.

Mike

[PaulMarcel]

Jointers and Planers confuse me also. I have a question or two that I hope will contribute the answering Mike’s question and straighten my thinking out as well.

I haven't read this whole thread yet so I'm likely going to repeat what's already said. Rather than correct the order of your operations, I'll just list what they should be here. And it has nothing to do with whether the stock is rough or S2S. Honestly, half the S2S isn't by the time they sell it to you. In that case, it's just like rough but won't need as many passes.

1. Run the stock face-down through the jointer cup-down. Any edge riding the fence is irrelevant; your point is to flatten that face relative to nothing but itself.
2. With that face flat, you now run it on an edge, flat-face to the fence. Run it until the edge is clean. You now have a 90 degree corner that should really be 90.
3. Plane it in the planer/thicknesser. This gets the other face flat and parallel to the first. Since you'll likely take light passes and flip the board over a few times, there's a small possibility that the edge will be a hair off 90 when you're done if you flipped the board before the second rough side was planed enough to be a stable reference surface. That said, plane it enough to be a stable reference surface
4. You now have 3 sides ready; run it through the table saw with the clean edge on the fence to cut the last ragged edge clean and parallel to the first. It is true that you could joint this edge the same way as the other on the jointer with a flat face against the fence and you will have a straight edge... but there's nothing in doing that which guarantees the newly cleaned edge will be parallel to the first
5. At this point, you have 4 sides clean. Cross cut the ends off square and you have dimensioned lumber.

Variant for tracksaw users faced with a board having skew grain (or grain not going the direction you want... maybe you want to skew parallel grain!):

1. (same as above) flatten one face on the jointer
2. Plane it with the planer/thicknesser. You have two clean parallel faces, but the edges are all ratty.
3. Put guide on a face along where you want a clean edge; run the tracksaw. You can give a swipe with the jointer plane to clean up machine marks. This method, though, is superior if you have grain not parallel to the rough edge as using the jointer in this case will give you a clean edge with grain not parallel.
4. Run it through the table saw for the parallel edge.
5. Cross cut ends.

Variant for tracksaw owners with no power jointer (that would be me):

1. Joint one face flat by hand with a hand plane. If it is already reasonably flat, skip plane in power planer.
2. If you didn't skip plane in step 1, skip plane now. The reasonably flat face you jointed by hand will be more than enough reference surface for skip planing to get two parallel flat faces.
3. Continue with above from step 3.

Variant for peeps with no power jointer/planer or hand planes:

1. Lowe's

[Onboard]

I haven't read this whole thread yet so I'm likely going to repeat what's already said. Rather than correct the order of your operations, I'll just list what they should be here. And it has nothing to do with whether the stock is rough or S2S. Honestly, half the S2S isn't by the time they sell it to you. In that case, it's just like rough but won't need as many passes.

Boy, after that explanation “I’m going to Lowe’s”.

Seriously, that was a great explanation. Thank you.

I did have to go running to Google to find out what “skip planing” meant, but other than that I greatly appreciate the explanation.

By the way, what would be the difference between doing an initial run of one face through the planer to get a flat surface (not parallel just flat), versus running it through the jointer (prior to jointing the edge)?

[PaulMarcel]

Boy, after that explanation “I’m going to Lowe’s”.

Seriously, that was a great explanation. Thank you.

I did have to go running to Google to find out what “skip planing” meant, but other than that I greatly appreciate the explanation.

By the way, what would be the difference between doing an initial run of one face through the planer to get a flat surface (not parallel just flat), versus running it through the jointer (prior to jointing the edge)?

Trimble Epic has a good picture of what would happen running it through the planer first. It's the picture on the right. You'll get two parallel surfaces but if your reference surface is bowed or twisted, the parallel surface will track it and you'll still have bowed or twisted board. Only jointing/face-planing the first face flat lets you avoid this problem.

So yeah... skip planing is just putting it in the planer to take very light passes while flipping the board in between so you nibble away evenly from both sides.

To add to the confusion, some people will joint/face-plane with a planer. They are using a sled. For this case, you put the twisted board on the flat sled (typically a thin torsion box) and shim the twisted board so it no longer moves or rocks. In this case, you are using the bottom of the sled as your reference surface. Once the top of the twisted board is flat, you remove it from the sled, put the flat side down, and run it to get two parallel sides. Then the method is a bit like the second one I listed in that you'll now go generate square edges.

[Onboard]

Trimble Epic has a good picture of what would happen running it through the planer first. It's the picture on the right. You'll get two parallel surfaces but if your reference surface is bowed or twisted, the parallel surface will track it and you'll still have bowed or twisted board. Only jointing/face-planing the first face flat lets you avoid this problem.

So yeah... skip planing is just putting it in the planer to take very light passes while flipping the board in between so you nibble away evenly from both sides.

To add to the confusion, some people will joint/face-plane with a planer. They are using a sled. For this case, you put the twisted board on the flat sled (typically a thin torsion box) and shim the twisted board so it no longer moves or rocks. In this case, you are using the bottom of the sled as your reference surface. Once the top of the twisted board is flat, you remove it from the sled, put the flat side down, and run it to get two parallel sides. Then the method is a bit like the second one I listed in that you'll now go generate square edges.

Thanks again Paul-Marcel.

I think I finally got the picture on the planer versus jointer. The jointer is not putting much pressure on the board as you feed it through (face side down) so it’s kind of like subtending a plane through the face of an irregular surface such as I suppose you could do in SketchUp. The planer however is attempting to press the board flat via the pressure rollers to attempt a planer result. However, as you indicate, the board will spring back to it’s original shape leaving the face smooth but not planer with the opposite side (unless of course it’s a very flat board to begin with) and not flat to allow a 90 deg. joint of the board edge. Yes, no?

[PaulMarcel]

Thanks again Paul-Marcel.

I think I finally got the picture on the planer versus jointer. The jointer is not putting much pressure on the board as you feed it through (face side down) so it’s kind of like subtending a plane through the face of an irregular surface such as I suppose you could do in SketchUp. The planer however is attempting to press the board flat via the pressure rollers to attempt a planer result. However, as you mention, the board will spring back to it’s original shape leaving the face smooth but not planer with the opposite side (unless of course it’s a very flat board to begin with) and not flat to allow a 90 deg. joint of the board edge. Yes, no?

Well, the whole "press down flat" thing is only true in certain cases. So we'll ignore it for now.

If you push a 6' board through a lunchbox planer that has about a foot of solid table, you can easily see how the portion not in the planer can be anywhere (bowed up, bowed down, etc). Only the part on the table is flat in the sense that contact points are pushed to the tabletop while the cutter skims.

Trimble's second picture is great for this case; you do get two parallel surfaces and a uniform thickness, but the board itself might be bowed. Initial face planing/jointing flattens one side.

As for the edges, you certainly can joint the edges square even if the board is bowed. All that matters is that the reference face is pressed to the fence next to the cutterhead. In fact you'll often see the edges of bent laminations run through a jointer to clean and square them up.

[Onboard]

Well, the whole "press down flat" thing is only true in certain cases. So we'll ignore it for now.

If you push a 6' board through a lunchbox planer that has about a foot of solid table, you can easily see how the portion not in the planer can be anywhere (bowed up, bowed down, etc). Only the part on the table is flat in the sense that contact points are pushed to the tabletop while the cutter skims.

Trimble's second picture is great for this case; you do get two parallel surfaces and a uniform thickness, but the board itself might be bowed. Initial face planing/jointing flattens one side.

As for the edges, you certainly can joint the edges square even if the board is bowed. All that matters is that the reference face is pressed to the fence next to the cutterhead. In fact you'll often see the edges of bent laminations run through a jointer to clean and square them up.

So, what I’m hearing is that if a cupped board is first run through a planer (face up or face down), whether it managed to fully flatten the board or not, the edge cannot then be jointed 90 deg. to the face that was planed because it will still have a curved (or a partially curved) face because it reforms back to the cupped shape after it was deformed to the flat (or partially flat) shape. I guess simple geometry would indicate that. However if a board was bowed (curved along the length, but flat along the width) then the edge could be jointed 90 deg. to the face. I can see this as long as the boards face is in constant contact at one point (or a small area) with the fence as it’s fed through the jointer.

I at least now see the need to use the jointer for flattening a face versus the planer to achieve an edge plane that is 90 deg. to the face plane. That is, on a cupped board, until enough wood it removed from the center to edge or the edge to center on one face, then there’s little use in putting the board through the planer. I can also see the need to use the jointer to plane in multiple passes, a board with a slight twist to achieve the same flat surface before running through a planer. Am I getting any closer?