my own worst enemy?

[went_postal]

So... been playing around with the pre-seal stuff... trying different things... This may be coming down to my inner critic bitching and moaning again.

Also wondering if I have been "over sanding."

I just did a test piece where I hand sanded the piece instead of busting out the machinery. THEN... I actually read the instructions on the can of stain and applied "liberally" ACROSS the grain. Let it pool up a bit and then wiped with the grain to smooth it out. It's in the garage drying at the moment so I will try and take a pic and see if you guys can tell the diff.

With the hand sanding it almost looks like the blotching (what little of it there is) on the untreated part is manageable.

When I power sanded the other test piece... I was using 220 grit. My hand sanding I used 240 but seemed to get a better end product. Anyone else ever notice that?

I HAVE to be doing something wrong... or just depending on my tools too much. I am half curious to see what the results would be after a cabinet scraper.

[went_postal]

Here it is:

One half has a wash coat... the other doesn't. What do you think?

[AceHoleInOne]

Two things,

First, is your sample all heart wood? Heart wood usually takes up stain evenly.

Second, yes sanding to higher grit does seal off the woods pores. End-grain, I will sand up to 320 then burnish with say 600, it will seal off the pores and stain nice and even, not letting it drink in.

-Ace-

[went_postal]

Two things,

First, is your sample all heart wood? Heart wood usually takes up stain evenly.

Second, yes sanding to higher grit does seal off the woods pores. End-grain, I will sand up to 320 then burnish with say 600, it will seal off the pores and stain nice and even, not letting it drink in.

-Ace-

The sample piece is a good representation of what most of my pieces look like. I have a few of the darker colored poplar pieces but not many.

I think I am going to hand sand to 220/240 on the face and maybe do a 5:2 dna:seal coat or 2:1.

one other thing that was different... I prepped the wood on that sample with a real quick wipe of mineral spirits.

[PaulMarcel]

Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but you sealed the wood then power sanded, correct? I always hand-sand gently after sealing to just take off the build above the surface, but leave stuff in the pores. Sand too hard or power-sand and you'll go deeper into the pores and remove the seal you tried to put there.

[went_postal]

Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but you sealed the wood then power sanded, correct? I always hand-sand gently after sealing to just take off the build above the surface, but leave stuff in the pores. Sand too hard or power-sand and you'll go deeper into the pores and remove the seal you tried to put there.

Nope. I hand sanded my test pieces BEFORE sealing. Then after sealing I took some 400 and lightly hit the sealed wood.

The diff in power and hand sanding is all pre-anything on a can.

[BillN]

Nope. I hand sanded my test pieces BEFORE sealing. Then after sealing I took some 400 and lightly hit the sealed wood.

The diff in power and hand sanding is all pre-anything on a can.

Maybe it's my screen, but I can't much (if any) difference in the pic. You're trying to control blotching, right? I know Charles Neill just came out with a product to control blotching. Any of those products will affect how much stain will be accepted by the wood. If you're using all heartwood I agree that the wood should accept the stain at the same rate... unless the grain is doing something squirrely in the middle of the board. Another thought. If you're using stain (meaning pigment, the stuff that settles to the bottom of the can), try using a dye. I've had good luck with liquid Transtint dyes. mix it with the recommended amount of water (if you want to avoid raising the grain try alcohol instead of water) and apply the mix over the board. The dye is so much smaller (think of pigment as the Empire State Building and dye as one of the bricks) that it seems to go in pretty uniformly. Let it dry. It will look like crap. Then put two coats of finish (your choice) over it and see if it doesn't look better.

[went_postal]

Maybe it's my screen, but I can't much (if any) difference in the pic. You're trying to control blotching, right? I know Charles Neill just came out with a product to control blotching. Any of those products will affect how much stain will be accepted by the wood. If you're using all heartwood I agree that the wood should accept the stain at the same rate... unless the grain is doing something squirrely in the middle of the board. Another thought. If you're using stain (meaning pigment, the stuff that settles to the bottom of the can), try using a dye. I've had good luck with liquid Transtint dyes. mix it with the recommended amount of water (if you want to avoid raising the grain try alcohol instead of water) and apply the mix over the board. The dye is so much smaller (think of pigment as the Empire State Building and dye as one of the bricks) that it seems to go in pretty uniformly. Let it dry. It will look like crap. Then put two coats of finish (your choice) over it and see if it doesn't look better.

I have played around with dye on smaller projects... Mixing with DNA always seems to work best from what I could tell... even did a pretty good job on Hard Maple.

It's not your screen... There are VERY subtle differences in the two sides.

[AceHoleInOne]

Careful, If your going to use alcohol as your transfer agent for the dye, don't use shellac as the barrier coat. The alcohol/dye over the shellac barrier coat WILL dissolve the shellac and cause the dye to blotch.

-Ace-

[BillN]

Careful, If your going to use alcohol as your transfer agent for the dye, don't use shellac as the barrier coat. The alcohol/dye over the shellac barrier coat WILL dissolve the shellac and cause the dye to blotch.

-Ace-

Ace,

If you dissolve the dye in alcohol and it dries completely will the shellac cause it to blotch? The reason I ask is how is it different if you use water as the transfer agent. The dye is soluble in either water or alcohol. Will it also blotch if you use water as the transfer agent and then use shellac? The reason I ask is that I did it once with water and then shellac and it didn't seem to be a problem - maybe a I got lucky.

Bill

[went_postal]

Careful, If your going to use alcohol as your transfer agent for the dye, don't use shellac as the barrier coat. The alcohol/dye over the shellac barrier coat WILL dissolve the shellac and cause the dye to blotch.

-Ace-

In theory shouldn't the DNA evaporate at some point?

[AceHoleInOne]

Bill:

Here is the thing…it depends. Shellac barrier coats are typically thin say ½ pound cut. So if you have thin shellac down on the surface of the wood, then go over top of that with a wet alcohol/dye application. The alcohol with the dye will re-wet the shellac re-dissolving it making it even thinner thus making it blotch, remember its color, so the color concentration will be pulled towards those thirsty blotchy wood areas (usually the sap wood) like a vacuum, or collect in the grain pockets and pool. This is especially true of brushing on dye.

Now the depends… if you have a thicker 1.5 to 2 to 3 pound barrier coat yes it’s less likely to dissolve the shellac down to the wood causing blotch, but dyes are hard to even out by just one coat, so we apply another wet coat of dye further dissolving the shellac, then that could blotch. It’s a play thing learned by doing.

You don’t need any blotch control with any dye if using spray equipment, regardless of solvent or water as the transfer agent, unless you spray too wet, then you will blotch. Spray equipment applies the dye very dry, and the dye sits only on the surface of the wood not being pulled into the wood, so no blotch. However, as a precaution, we try to stack the deck in our favor, in case of any oops, so we spray a thin barrier coat as a precaution.

Hope this helps.

[BillN]

Bill:

Here is the thing…it depends. Shellac barrier coats are typically thin say ½ pound cut. So if you have thin shellac down on the surface of the wood, then go over top of that with a wet alcohol/dye application. The alcohol with the dye will re-wet the shellac re-dissolving it making it even thinner thus making it blotch, remember its color, so the color concentration will be pulled towards those thirsty blotchy wood areas (usually the sap wood) like a vacuum, or collect in the grain pockets and pool. This is especially true of brushing on dye.

Now the depends… if you have a thicker 1.5 to 2 to 3 pound barrier coat yes it’s less likely to dissolve the shellac down to the wood causing blotch, but dyes are hard to even out by just one coat, so we apply another wet coat of dye further dissolving the shellac, then that could blotch. It’s a play thing learned by doing.

You don’t need any blotch control with any dye if using spray equipment, regardless of solvent or water as the transfer agent, unless you spray too wet, then you will blotch. Spray equipment applies the dye very dry, and the dye sits only on the surface of the wood not being pulled into the wood, so no blotch. However, as a precaution, we try to stack the deck in our favor, in case of any oops, so we spray a thin barrier coat as a precaution.

Hope this helps.

Ace,

I was thinking dye first, then shellac. Still a problem?

Bill

[AceHoleInOne]

Sorry I'm not understanding, let me try this, blotching will occur with anything put on a blotch prone wood, applied wet enough, that contains a color, even an oil can cause blotching because oil has color , though very light, and the hard and soft grain thing. So yes, a dye that has water as the transfer agent before shellac can cause blotching. That is why I like to spray a dye, it goes on dryer.

It has been my experience , no, that an alcohol cut shellac over dry water based dye, caused a blotch. I'm not saying that it couldn't either. Again it depends red dyes are typically the worst due to the intensity of color.

In conclusion, that is why test boards are so important, take the time and fuss see the results. Finishing can throw a lot or curves at you, test boards prevent the freaking out at finishing time.

-Ace-

[BillN]

Sorry I'm not understanding, let me try this, blotching will occur with anything put on a blotch prone wood, applied wet enough, that contains a color, even an oil can cause blotching because oil has color , though very light, and the hard and soft grain thing. So yes, a dye that has water as the transfer agent before shellac can cause blotching. That is why I like to spray a dye, it goes on dryer.

It has been my experience , no, that an alcohol cut shellac over dry water based dye, caused a blotch. I'm not saying that it couldn't either. Again it depends red dyes are typically the worst due to the intensity of color.

In conclusion, that is why test boards are so important, take the time and fuss see the results. Finishing can throw a lot or curves at you, test boards prevent the freaking out at finishing time.

-Ace-

Got it. Try before you dye or you'll die.

[went_postal]

Just an update...

Did 2:1 DNA:Seal_Coat and this is the second coat of oil based Colonial Maple:

The blotching is not too bad. Biggest problem I have is that I THOUGHT I cleaned up all the glue... nope. =( At least it's on the inside.

[AceHoleInOne]

Looks nice and even to me...nice job

-Ace-

[went_postal]

Looks nice and even to me...nice job

-Ace-

Thanks. Wife likes it a lot... Guess that is the vote that counts the most since this cabinet was a request of hers.