jgfore Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I have made most of my big power tool purchases and I love working with them. However, it only took one project to realize that I did not have all of the neccessary hand tools. I am planning on getting a set of wood chisels and a dove tail saw this week, but was wandering what hand tools really make the most difference to the masters and pros on this forum? Also, I will probably purchase a set of stanley chisels and a stanley dovetail saw. Is this a mistake by purchasing these iteams from Lowes or is there a big enough difference in the brands that I should save up and by High Dollar chisels and dovetail saw? (Stanley dovetail saw=$11.95 or saw from WoodCraft=$125.00 to $295.00.) I just can not see the price difference, but you tell me. Thanks Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I was gonna start answering, then I saw you wanted advice form the "masters and pros"...so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulMarcel Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I was gonna start answering, then I saw you wanted advice form the "masters and pros"...so... For that same reason, I wasn't even sure if I was qualified to move the posting from Woodworking Talk to Neanderthal Village! (but I did anyway) Q: so if Neanderthals don't use electricity, how do they get to the Internet?! Sorry, OT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onboard Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I was gonna start answering, then I saw you wanted advice form the "masters and pros"...so... For that same reason, I wasn't even sure if I was qualified to move the posting from Woodworking Talk to Neanderthal Village! (but I did anyway) Q: so if Neanderthals don't use electricity, how do they get to the Internet?! Sorry, OT... Gentlemen, it's all relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathryn Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Also, I will probably purchase a set of stanley chisels and a stanley dovetail saw. Is this a mistake by purchasing these iteams from Lowes or is there a big enough difference in the brands that I should save up and by High Dollar chisels and dovetail saw? (Stanley dovetail saw=$11.95 or saw from WoodCraft=$125.00 to $295.00.) I just can not see the price difference, but you tell me. Umm, I'm not a master, but was in your shoes not long ago. The dovetail saws you get at Lowes etc. would be okay. People who do a lot of dovetails though--and if you add them up that's a lot of cuts for even just a box--prefer either a Japanese style saw or a traditional Western style dovetail saw. I'm not well versed in Japanese style tools, but many are excellent. I have and can recommend the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw. For half the price, and a lot of guys like these, is the Veritas dovetail saw. Compared to the Stanley, the grip hangs correctly and is easier to maneuver for a more accurate cut. Less fatigue. The saw plates will probably be thinner, the set on the teeth a little finer. On the Stanley, the teeth may be induction-hardened (they'll look like gun blueing) so you can't resharpen it, but you can resharpen the more expensive ones. Everyone uses the same steel (I think it comes from Sweden) so there's no advantage/disadvantage there. If you have a chance to try one you'd immediately recognize the difference. For chisels, the steel in the Stanleys is pretty good actually. Stanley is supposed to be coming out with some swank "Sweetheart" brand socket chisels but nobody's seen them yet. I have and can recommend Ashley Iles chisels. The Mk 2 bench chisels would be great all-round chisels for all sorts of work. I have the butt chisels--they're shorter and good for dovetails. They're really great because you don't have to take a lot of time to flatten the backs. The steel is excellent O-1 Sheffield steel, just excellent, and the edges are beveled right down to the backs, which makes a big difference when you're doing dovetails. The Ashley Iles are 20-30 bucks apiece but are in my opinion probably going to be as good as Lie Nielsens ($55) or Blue Spruce ($75 apiece). If you're going to get good chisels you'd also be well advised to get a good sharpening system too. The Stanleys that are readily available are suitable & adequate for many things. They're sturdy and will take a lot of abuse. But I don't think they're suitable for dovetails. Save up and get the better stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztifpatrick Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I have made most of my big power tool purchases and I love working with them. However, it only took one project to realize that I did not have all of the neccessary hand tools. I am planning on getting a set of wood chisels and a dove tail saw this week, but was wandering what hand tools really make the most difference to the masters and pros on this forum? Also, I will probably purchase a set of stanley chisels and a stanley dovetail saw. Is this a mistake by purchasing these iteams from Lowes or is there a big enough difference in the brands that I should save up and by High Dollar chisels and dovetail saw? (Stanley dovetail saw=$11.95 or saw from WoodCraft=$125.00 to $295.00.) I just can not see the price difference, but you tell me. Thanks Jeff Well I', not qualified to answer either, but here's my 2 cents. IMHO you get what you pay for and I stopped buying woodworking tools at the big box stores a while ago because I hate having to buy things twice. Those stores are not tailored to furniture making. My first table saw was bought there, $600 dollars but I learned over the next year or so that it was not possible to adjust the blade to the mitre slot with any degree of accuarcy, eventually I bought a PM66 and there is no looking back. Lee valley make a nice dovetail saw and I think you could be buy lower end chisels to start because yo have to learn to sharpen them correctly and might as well learn on a cheaper but good chisel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Slack Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 On the latest issue of Fine Woodworking, Michael Pekovich wrote an article "12 Tools Every Furniture Maker Needs". IMO you should buy the best tools you could afford. If you can swing the money and invest in Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, go for those guys. Second I like establishing relationships with one vendor and stick with them, make sure you get to know them and they know you. These relationships will give you huge results when you need a favor. I don't own a Dovetail Saw yet but I am considering getting one. My process is the same as yours, first I invested heavily in power tools and then saw the videos how Marc would fine tune his joints with hand tools. Many guys do this, even Tommy Mac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 If you have some time to waste, I put a post on my blog once about the cost of hand tools, and how maybe our expectations are not quite what they should be regarding hand tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 OK. Might I clarify myself!!!! What I concider a Master and a Pro is anyone that is more experianced than me, which means if you have completed a project.......you are a master to me. To everyone that did not reply to this becuase I put to the Masters and Pros, and you do not consider yourselves as in that catagory, please forgive me, and give me your thoughts. Sorry again. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 For that same reason, I wasn't even sure if I was qualified to move the posting from Woodworking Talk to Neanderthal Village! (but I did anyway) Q: so if Neanderthals don't use electricity, how do they get to the Internet?! Sorry, OT... Sorry guys, I did not mean to hurt feels. Please give me your opinions. You are all masters to me. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I was gonna start answering, then I saw you wanted advice form the "masters and pros"...so... Sorry Vic, You are a master to me. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Sorry Vic, You are a master to me. Jeff LOL!! OH PLLLLLEAASE!! LOL..hardly..but, someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulMarcel Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 We were just joking around, Jeff. Hey, Wilbur-sensei, I remember that posting. It was an eye-opener for sure. I knew you could do a lot with hand tools for less, but what surprised me were your numbers especially considering that you weren't picking cheap tools. Jonathryn has some good points and the article Bobby referenced was the first thing I read in that issue. The hand tools I use all the time in projects are: - Veritas marking knife - Veritas and other marking gauges - Veritas low-angle jack plane - Lie-Nielsen low-angle block (without the nicker; seriously consider the nicker) - HP-7 shoulder plane - set of Veritas scrapers (Veritas variable burnisher makes in-flight burring a 10-second affair) - Veritas flush plane (but read the posting by Loki about converting a spare plane blade into that) - Good combination squares (18", 12" and two 4") - Good chisels; I have the Narex chisels and they are a good price/performance set, but I think other suggestions will be better - Flush trim saw - Dozuki - Big freaking mallet named "compliance" I can honestly say that those are used on every project with few exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I need more money!! and probably and second job!! Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignoise Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Irwin Marples are good chisels, I got a set for £30 and I use them everyday from hanging doors to more intricate work. There is no need to spend hundreds on designer chisels, the marples will do you just as good if you keep them sharp When it comes to your dovetail saw the main difference between the stanley and the more expensive one is that the stanley can not be resharpened. When it's blunt you toss it away and get another. So if you see yourself doing dovetails regular then I would recommend saving for one that you can resharpen. I currently use a throw away stanely tenon saw and dovetail saw and they do the job fine. I'm hoping to upgrade one christmas/birthday as I plan to use them more outside of work. As for essential hand tools smoothing plane, marking knife, mortice gauge, rule, set & combination squares, rubber mallet...the list could go on. I wouldn't worry about a list too much you will know what you need when you need it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathryn Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I need more money!! and probably and second job!! Jeff Nah. Just get the tools you need when you need them, not all at once. Did you check out that post at Wilbur's website? It should be bronzed and put in the hall of fame. Lotsa folks who would think nothing of dropping $600 on a table saw could get a whole lot of much more versatile and better-quality hand tools for the same amount. Another thing a lot of guys like to do is cruise garage sales and flea markets to find great old tools and fix them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 I purchased the Stanley Chisels and I am trying to find a dovetail saw that is a little above the Stanley grade. I am about to do a project that requires several mortise and tenons, so a good dovetail saw would be gold. I do not have dado blade and am just plan scared to try a tenon with my router. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathryn Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 I purchased the Stanley Chisels and I am trying to find a dovetail saw that is a little above the Stanley grade. I am about to do a project that requires several mortise and tenons, so a good dovetail saw would be gold. I do not have dado blade and am just plan scared to try a tenon with my router. Jeff You could do mortises with those Stanley chisels, especially the big long ones. Those would do fine. But you don't want a dovetail saw for the tenons unless the tenons are pretty shallow. Check the depth of whatever saw you're getting to make sure that it will accommodate the size of your tenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 You could do mortises with those Stanley chisels, especially the big long ones. Those would do fine. But you don't want a dovetail saw for the tenons unless the tenons are pretty shallow. Check the depth of whatever saw you're getting to make sure that it will accommodate the size of your tenon. What kind of saw would you recommend for the tenons? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgfore Posted October 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 The tenons are going to be on a 2x4 going into a mortise on a 2x4. The tenon with be a through tenon. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboMonk Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Consider a Japanese Dozuki pull saw. That's what I've been using for more than a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathryn Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 The tenons are going to be on a 2x4 going into a mortise on a 2x4. The tenon with be a through tenon. Jeff My dovetail saw has a depth of about two inches. If you're doing a through mortise you'd want the blade depth to be at least as long as the tenon (otherwise the back gets in the way). I got a big old back saw off ebay that's 18 inches long and 4 1/2 inches deep and filed rip. I think it came off a little mitre box and someone refiled it to do tenons. You never see those on ebay, but you see larger backsaws at flea markets--for this application 14-20 inches should be okay. Don't get a big honker mitre box saw 26+ inches--they're too big and unwieldy. You could get one from Wenzloff, Adira, Bad Axe, Medallion, Lie-Nielsen. They're all very expensive, although well regarded by their users. You could make one. Bob Rozaieski at Logan Cabinet Shoppe made his own back saw like that and it looks like a really cool project. A lot of people love their Japanese saws, and why not? Sadly, I haven't used them and can't advise about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro Boy Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 I was in your exact same position not so long ago. Whilst definitely not a master (barely an amatuer), I've made really good use out of my Lie-Nielsen chisel set (6 chisels). I owned an el-cheapo dozuki pull saw to get my by which worked well for a while. Now I've moved to the Adria dovetail saw. On Saturday I bought my first few handplanes. So ... that order has worked really nicely for me as a gradual investment type thing. I'd also echo the sentiments already expressed ... get the best tools you can afford. There's something about using nice tools which put you in the right frame of mind to make nice furniture. Cheers, Af. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 There is a big enough difference but you don't have to pay the Woodcraft prices. As your skills improve the $11 dollar dovetail saw will hold you back unless you know how to file and set it. http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884 http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=49989&cat=1,41504,43500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari Hultman Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 I purchased the Stanley Chisels and I am trying to find a dovetail saw that is a little above the Stanley grade. I am about to do a project that requires several mortise and tenons, so a good dovetail saw would be gold. I do not have dado blade and am just plan scared to try a tenon with my router. Jeff Jeff, a very good dovetail saw that does not cost a fortune is the one offered by Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884 You have choices between 14 and 20 tpi. The lower number will cut more aggressively, and the higher number will give you a thinner kerf (for skinny dovetails). Inexpensive chisels are fine, you will just need to sharpen them more often. When you want to invest in better chisels, I recommend Japanese. They take a while longer to sharpen, but they hold an edge for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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