grain direction solutions sought

[tombuhl]

Looking for thoughts on handling movement issues on a cabinet I am designing.

Will have six legs (3 front, 3 back) with middle legs separating and supporting basic dovetailed boxes to the left and right.

Space between top and cases will have open areas. Cleats run front to back connecting each leg set (see pdf).

Grain direction of boxes and top run traditionally. However if 2" high cleats were in same direction. the material would be weak, so i plan grain to run perpendicular to basic grain orientation.

Cleats will sit proud (above) legs in brindle fashion. I am thinking of using a fixed peg (dowel) in front set, then having a slot in the back cleats so they can move relative to the rear pegs. Hopefully, with the PDFs this will be clearer.

I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts or suggestions Marc's fans might be able to offer.

Thanks much.

Leg-Cleat detail.pdf

Wine Cabinet.pdf

[Pete Bennett]

Looking for thoughts on handling movement issues on a cabinet I am designing.

Will have six legs (3 front, 3 back) with middle legs separating and supporting basic dovetailed boxes to the left and right.

Space between top and cases will have open areas. Cleats run front to back connecting each leg set (see pdf).

Grain direction of boxes and top run traditionally. However if 2" high cleats were in same direction. the material would be weak, so i plan grain to run perpendicular to basic grain orientation.

Cleats will sit proud (above) legs in brindle fashion. I am thinking of using a fixed peg (dowel) in front set, then having a slot in the back cleats so they can move relative to the rear pegs. Hopefully, with the PDFs this will be clearer.

I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts or suggestions Marc's fans might be able to offer.

Thanks much.

Leg-Cleat detail.pdf

Perhaps it's me, it usually is but have I misunderstood. On the leg frame pdf the grain of the cleats is going in the normal longitudinal direction but, in the Wine Cabinet PDF it is going vertically? If this is the case I'd be very concerned about using short grain at this point.

I'm not completely certain of the problem so I'll tell you how I would build it and see what you think. The cabinet I would build as a box, probably with either lap dovetail joints or more likely mitred dovetails. I would mortice and tenon the leg frames to the bottom cross members (cleats) I would make the bridle joints for the top and dry assemble the frames to check fit etc. Then remove the top cross members. I would then cut slots into the top edge of the bottom cross members to accept a dowel let into the base of the cabinet, (as many as you feel are needed to locate and be reasonably strong) Lower the cabinet onto the lower cross members and drop the top ones in place afterwards. This would be a good design point to have these upper cross members actually longer and have a shoulder both sides of the legs and maybe shape the ends in some way, if you follow what I mean.

If you feel the need you could include for slots and dowels in these to locate the top surface of the cabinet as well. Normally I would button a top down but in this design that probably wouldn't look too good. You could get really fancy and form sliding dovetails in the top and cross rails and assemble as a unit, but, that maybe is going a little too far. Another solution would be to make screw head slots in the top surface of the cross members and place protruding screws in the underside of the top to slot into these giving a reasonable fixing and allowing for movement. Careful adjustment of the screw depth will give quite a tight fit. But, remember you want all the screws sliding in the same direction! Sounds obvious. It is, but, I have done it the wrong way before now and wondered why I cannot slide my top into position.

Hope this makes sense to you and answers your concerns regarding movement.

Pete

[tombuhl]

Perhaps it's me, it usually is but have I misunderstood. On the leg frame pdf the grain of the cleats is going in the normal longitudinal direction but, in the Wine Cabinet PDF it is going vertically? If this is the case I'd be very concerned about using short grain at this point.

I'm not completely certain of the problem so I'll tell you how I would build it and see what you think. The cabinet I would build as a box, probably with either lap dovetail joints or more likely mitred dovetails. I would mortice and tenon the leg frames to the bottom cross members (cleats) I would make the bridle joints for the top and dry assemble the frames to check fit etc. Then remove the top cross members. I would then cut slots into the top edge of the bottom cross members to accept a dowel let into the base of the cabinet, (as many as you feel are needed to locate and be reasonably strong) Lower the cabinet onto the lower cross members and drop the top ones in place afterwards. This would be a good design point to have these upper cross members actually longer and have a shoulder both sides of the legs and maybe shape the ends in some way, if you follow what I mean.

If you feel the need you could include for slots and dowels in these to locate the top surface of the cabinet as well. Normally I would button a top down but in this design that probably wouldn't look too good. You could get really fancy and form sliding dovetails in the top and cross rails and assemble as a unit, but, that maybe is going a little too far. Another solution would be to make screw head slots in the top surface of the cross members and place protruding screws in the underside of the top to slot into these giving a reasonable fixing and allowing for movement. Careful adjustment of the screw depth will give quite a tight fit. But, remember you want all the screws sliding in the same direction! Sounds obvious. It is, but, I have done it the wrong way before now and wondered why I cannot slide my top into position.

Hope this makes sense to you and answers your concerns regarding movement.

Pete

Pete, opps, the blue arrow on the Wine Cabinet pdf was incorrect. I've since posted a corrected version.

Later tonight I'll read your post more carefully to see how it meshes with my approach.

My initial thought was to have counterbored holes in cleats, with movement allowance, then screws to attach the top.

Thanks for your thoughts.

tom