By request, Sean's additional shop pix

[seanblack]

http://thewoodwhispe...ipped-workshop/

Thank you for all the nice comments regarding my shop that is shown in the "Shops" section of TWW. Above is a link. As requested, a closer look at some of the dust collection connections.

I tried to upload a Sketchup file of my shop but is was too large even after zipping it. If anyone has an idea on how to get around this just let me know.

Here is a pic of the second bandsaw that I added after the initial pics were taken.

[VitalBodies]

Thank you so much for the additional images!

Are you using common rubber plumbing fittings? Wow, interesting job if so...

Nice yet simple change on the table saw.

I am setting up my dust collection so I have been studying up.

Are you going from 8" to 6" in that image?

I have some suggestions for you consider if you are interested.

[seanblack]

I always welcome suggestions. Those are common plumbing fitting in a few places. A few places I needed to change odd sizes. There probably is a better method but I couldn’t think of it. The plumbing fittings worked well in the odd places because I didn’t need to use adhesive or screws. The one pic is going from 8” to 6” where it comes into the DC. There are 18 dust collection gates total. I included pics of all the locations that don’t have standard DC fittings.

[seanblack]

Here are a few jpg images from Sketchup.

[VitalBodies]

You might get way more air flow if you could go from 8" directly to a 8 / 6 / 6 branch.

With 8" you get about 1570 CFM.

With 6" about 884 CFM.

So if you stay with 8" all the way until you branch to your two 6" you will maintain your 1570 CFM.

Your branch would need to be an 8 / 6 / 6.

Also an 8" port is equal to about four 4" ports. Thus you might want to leave four 4" ports open at all times.

These change might also help your DC not get as hot or use as much power.

CFM REFERENCE: http://www.grizzly.c...g/2011/Main/206

[VitalBodies]

Not sure if this would work for your situation but you might consider on your Kapex using 4 / 4 / 2.5.

The 2.5" you would reduce down to work for the saw and the 4" you would leave open and pointing down to suck up nearly 4" worth of dust that does not go into the blade guard port.

These are just minor details. I must say, you did a really nice job on your shop!

Nice job using the rubber plumbing parts, I bet they work really well.

[seanblack]

You might get way more air flow if you could go from 8" directly to a 8 / 6 / 6 branch.

With 8" you get about 1570 CFM.

With 6" about 884 CFM.

So if you stay with 8" all the way until you branch to your two 6" you will maintain your 1570 CFM.

Your branch would need to be an 8 / 6 / 6.

Also an 8" port is equal to about four 4" ports. Thus you might want to leave four 4" ports open at all times.

These change might also help your DC not get as hot or use as much power.

CFM REFERENCE: http://www.grizzly.c...g/2011/Main/206

The 8/6/6 is a good idea.

As far as leaving extra ports open… When I was researching dust collectors I called Oneida to ask them some questions. They said the fewer ports open the better it is for the motor on the dust collector. Ideally having no gates open is best but that would defeat the purpose. At first this seemed counter intuitive until I thought about it more. I guess the motor needs resistance or it will spin too fast. That is probably why there are warnings in the setup manually not to start the motor until it is connected to the ducting.

~Sean

[seanblack]

Not sure if this would work for your situation but you might consider on your Kapex using 4 / 4 / 2.5.

The 2.5" you would reduce down to work for the saw and the 4" you would leave open and pointing down to suck up nearly 4" worth of dust that does not go into the blade guard port.

These are just minor details. I must say, you did a really nice job on your shop!

Nice job using the rubber plumbing parts, I bet they work really well.

I may try the 4/4/2 behind the Kapex. Interesting idea. Thanks.

~Sean

[VitalBodies]

The 8/6/6 is a good idea.

As far as leaving extra ports open… When I was researching dust collectors I called Oneida to ask them some questions. They said the fewer ports open the better it is for the motor on the dust collector. Ideally having no gates open is best but that would defeat the purpose. At first this seemed counter intuitive until I thought about it more. I guess the motor needs resistance or it will spin too fast. That is probably why there are warnings in the setup manually not to start the motor until it is connected to the ducting.

~Sean

I would suggest a second opinion on that.

The idea (from what I have studied) is to match the the 8" inlet to the amount of gates open (8" = four 4" ports). Not to fast or not to slow. No extra strain on the motor and more air/dust moving out of the shop.

It is not really about gates but the port amount open should equal the designed amount of air the DC is meant to move.

Walk up to your shop vac and turn it on. Put your hand over the opening and the motor will start to high pitch whine, keep it that way and I have heard that it will over heat and burn out.

Edited August 15, 2011 by VitalBodies

[VitalBodies]

I may try the 4/4/2 behind the Kapex. Interesting idea. Thanks.

~Sean

If you are not getting enough air through the 2.5 then add a 3" reducer (or blast gate) to the OPEN END of the 4".

My goal in my shop is to make the most of each 4" on the tools that have smaller ports with the same technique.

[VitalBodies]

Right now the shop is a disaster as I am putting in dust collection and storage.

Here is a mockup I am working on for miter saws:

Larger Image: http://www.vitalbodi...1920x1080_0.jpg

I made the dust hood out of card board as card board is easy to work with for a mock up and rapid prototyping.

This uses a 4 / 4 / 2.5 as you can see.

The flex hose is from a Hoover.

I can use the same hose for my random orbital sander by just popping it off the saw.

Any advise on what clear 4" hose is the best?

[rmac]

Put your hand over the opening and the motor will start to high pitch whine as there is strain, keep it that way and it will over heat and burn out.

This is not right. When you block the airflow on a shop vac, the motor speeds up because you've reduced the load on it, not because the motor is "straining". If there was more load on the motor, it would slow down, not speed up. If you have an ammeter, you can verify this by measuring the current drawn by the vac in both cases. You will find that the current actually goes down when you block the airflow.

Having said that, the the motor may well run hotter when the airflow is blocked. But that's because it isn't getting enough air to cool itself, not because it is working harder.

-- Russ

[Beechwood Chip]

In a DC system, you need a certain amount of airflow to keep the dust in suspension. If you have 6" ducts that end in a single pin-hole opening, you'll get lots of suction through the pin-hole, but the air in the duct will be nearly stationary, and any dust will settle out before it gets to the dust collector. Sometime, you need to open an "unused" gate just to keep the flow rate up.

At least, that's what I've read.

[VitalBodies]

This is not right. When you block the airflow on a shop vac, the motor speeds up because you've reduced the load on it, not because the motor is "straining". If there was more load on the motor, it would slow down, not speed up. If you have an ammeter, you can verify this by measuring the current drawn by the vac in both cases. You will find that the current actually goes down when you block the airflow.

Having said that, the the motor may well run hotter when the airflow is blocked. But that's because it isn't getting enough air to cool itself, not because it is working harder.

-- Russ

Using a Kill-A-watt I can confirm that if you cover the opening on a Dustless Technologies HEPA Vacuum with your hand the amps and watts go down a little. I wonder if current limitation or other electronic features are built into the vac and also if a DC would act the same. I had read that if you do not allow enough flow you use more electricity on a DC. I had thought that Bill Pentz said that but not sure...

Edited August 16, 2011 by VitalBodies

[seanblack]

Right now the shop is a disaster as I am putting in dust collection and storage.

Here is a mockup I am working on for miter saws:

Larger Image: http://www.vitalbodi...1920x1080_0.jpg

I made the dust hood out of card board as card board is easy to work with for a mock up and rapid prototyping.

This uses a 4 / 4 / 2.5 as you can see.

The flex hose is from a Hoover.

I can use the same hose for my random orbital sander by just popping it off the saw.

Any advise on what clear 4" hose is the best?

I have only used the 4” clear hoses from Rockler. They work well. You do need to watch using the “bridged” hose clamps from Rocker on other brands. Some other brands spiral the opposite direction as Rockler’s hoses and therefore the bridge clamps don’t work.

~Sean

[VitalBodies]

When you say clear Rockler hoses do you mean the DustRight kind that shrink down or the other kind they sell?

[cowsine]

Using a Kill-A-watt I can confirm that if you cover the opening on a Dustless Technologies HEPA Vacuum with your hand the amps and watts go down a little. I wonder if current limitation or other electronic features are built into the vac and also if a DC would act the same. I had read that if you do not allow enough flow you use more electricity on a DC. I had thought that Bill Pentz said that but not sure...

The effect of reduced amps in a no-flow situation is due to the fan stalling, causing less resistance. (Actually, if and to what extent is a fan property and is described by a fan curve that varies based on design ) Typically a shop vac type machine is made to handle this drop in resistance and can handle the increased rpm - damage is caused over time by overheating due to no airflow through the motor like rmac wrote, however there are machines with seperate cooling for special needs.

A DC on the other hand can't necessarily handle an increase in rpm without vibrations that will cause damage to the motor and possibly the entire DC and bystanders. What actually happens depends on the fan curve in combination with the motor curve.

A quick googling found me this page with some examples of fan curves : http://www.esmagazine.com/Articles/Feature_Article/51e31898eeda8010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____#.Tkv_wxm78gk.favorites They obviously vary.

I pulled most out this of my head and haven't done this for a few years so, anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[TimV]

Sean, You gave me your information about the fm wireless unit from ebay on the original thread on the ww site. I'm getting ready to purchase one but I've noticed that all of them in the ebay pics don't have the actual wire from the power supply to the wall outlet. Did yours come with that?

[VitalBodies]

Here is an example of a dust collector:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2011/Main/192

So far I have gotten the impression that the idea is to maintain the flow of air CFM to approximately what an 8" port can handle if your DC has an 8" port.

The idea is to move as much (within spec) of the dust out of the room (and the tools) as one can with the DC they have.

Thus if one spends the big bucks on a DC over 1HP why only open one 4" port?

The DC like the one listed above, should be able to handle four 4" ports open - and from what I have read that is what is best to do for the goal of dust collection and removal.

If the DC can not perform adequate dust collection with four ports open because of leaks, resistance or other factors one can tune the DC by partially shutting one of the four blast gates.

My original point was about getting the most value/dust removal out of the DC. Pulling 1600 CFM or so of dust (8") is better than 400 CMF of one 4" port.

Any opinions, facts or comments on this would be helpful - from everyone.

I do not know that much about fan curves or such but that is interesting.

[seanblack]

Sean, You gave me your information about the fm wireless unit from ebay on the original thread on the ww site. I'm getting ready to purchase one but I've noticed that all of them in the ebay pics don't have the actual wire from the power supply to the wall outlet. Did yours come with that?

Yes. The power supply came with it including the cord.

[seanblack]

When you say clear Rockler hoses do you mean the DustRight kind that shrink down or the other kind they sell?

I use both types of hoses. The standard rockler hoses for all my eqiupment and the dust right hoses for my three floor sweeps. The bridge clamps work on both.

[TimV]

cool, thx, ordered one. now wait from hong kong......