Building Custom Furniture on commission ($$$)

[Bobby Slack]

Congratulations. Don't bargain!!! If you discount the price, then your original quote was a lie. I worked with a customer who wanted a discount and asked her what do we cut from the job?

A page from Vic's book ...

Just sent the customer a quote for $1,500 to do this job ... includes design, build, finish, delivery & materials. We will see???

Chester

[Chester]

Well ... here is the response to my quoted price ($1,250 + Materials ... est. $1,500).

"I want to thank you for all of your design effort on this project.

I am afraid, however, that this is really out of my price range. I hoping we could do something in the $400-600 range. And even then, I would have to tell my wife this would be my Christmas AND Birthday presents for at least the next 12 months."

I can not feel badly about this. At the start of this project, I was not tuned-in in any way to how to price something like this cabinet. You guys, on this forum, have helped me immensely on this. I would now have some idea of how to qualify a prospect in the future as to possible costs ... and I would do this before spending any time designing.

That said, I did enjoy the evolutionary process that took place between me and the prospect (with the help of SketchUp). The process stretched me ... both in terms of conceptual design and in terms of additional expertise with SketchUp. I am glad I did it ... because the 1st Mate now wants for me to design a "back of the couch" table/china storage cabinet in Greene & Greene style. The design, alone, is going to be a "stretch" for me. Maybe I should get a book with lots of Greene & Greene pictures.

[mlehikoinen]

Well ... here is the response to my quoted price ($1,250 + Materials ... est. $1,500).

"...

Maybe I should get a book with lots of Greene & Greene pictures.

'Poems of Wood & Light' by David Mathias is an awesome book on Greene & Greene both from a furniture and architectural standpoint. It became less of a mystery to me seeing the furniture in their natural habitat

Interesting thread. I've been watching it as I have no experience with commission pricing, but the info will likewise help me in the future some time.

[PaulMarcel]

Well ... here is the response to my quoted price ($1,250 + Materials ... est. $1,500).

"I want to thank you for all of your design effort on this project.

I am afraid, however, that this is really out of my price range. I hoping we could do something in the $400-600 range. And even then, I would have to tell my wife this would be my Christmas AND Birthday presents for at least the next 12 months."

Well, there would be just 1 Christmas and 1 birthday in the next 12 months so he's good on that. Your estimate here is $250 of materials and assuming splitting his range, he planned on paying you just $250 for labor. At a rate of $25/hour, you wouldn't have gotten far on it before donating your time. I liked this thread, too.

I also agree with PickeringMike about the Poems and Light book. Recently got it and it's all G&G eye-candy. The text looks good, too, once I get that far.

[Chester]

After sleeping on this ... I believe that you, in this forum topic, have saved me from a big mistake. I know that my initial thoughts were that I could build this piece in the "$400 to $600 range". As I would have proceeded with the build ... I know that I would have regretted it.

Thanks again to all.

Now ... on to that Greene & Greene project! This has me really excited. Going to Borders today to look at some books. Apparently they have 'Poems of Wood & Light'. The design is going to be challenging ... but last night at our county WW Guild meeting, one of our members told me that he used to do a lot of leaded glass work. This could come in very handy with the new G&G cabinet!

[Bobby Slack]

Chester, this is an amazing community. I belong to FOG and rarely go there. There is a limit of how many places one can go without falling into ... "avoidance behaviour".

Good luck with your Greene and Greene. On projects for sale ... charge enough to get something out of it (a new tool, a skill). I don't want to beat on a dead horse.

By this post, I assume your potential client did not accept your bid?

After sleeping on this ... I believe that you, in this forum topic, have saved me from a big mistake. I know that my initial thoughts were that I could build this piece in the "$400 to $600 range". As I would have proceeded with the build ... I know that I would have regretted it.

Thanks again to all.

Now ... on to that Greene & Greene project! This has me really excited. Going to Borders today to look at some books. Apparently they have 'Poems of Wood & Light'. The design is going to be challenging ... but last night at our county WW Guild meeting, one of our members told me that he used to do a lot of leaded glass work. This could come in very handy with the new G&G cabinet!

[Chester]

By this post, I assume your potential client did not accept your bid?

[Domer]

I would have to agree that $1,500 would not be an unreasonable price for a piece of hand made furniture. Go look at furniture at a decent furniture store and look at the cost. Now think about the time that you would guess that it will take you to build the piece. Most of the time, it takes me at least twice as long to build something than I originally thought.

$30 per hour for your time, your tools, supplies, etc. is really pretty reasonable and in particular if the client is fussy.

Also getting money up front is critical and some sort of clause in your agreement about what happens if he rejects the piece. Should you get paid for the time you spent. Should you get paid for part of the time you spent. Should you get paid for all or part of the wood.

I am not a professional woodworker but do own a business. You have to value your time and other resources or no one else will. Sam Maloof charged $11,000 for a side chair and $40,000 for his rockers.

Charge enough to make it worth your while.

Domer

[Chester]

I have been thinking about doing a blog piece on "the value of hand-made custom furniture." Don't know if I can speak with any real knowledge on the subject but am beginning to have some definite thoughts.

Over the years, I have not been a big follower of "the Roadshow" (Antiques Roadshow - PBS) but in the last year or so have become more interested. Of course, I really like anything to do with antique furniture ... especially American. But the art that is shown and the background of the art has become of particular interest to me. Do I really know anything about art? ... not really but I enjoy hearing the factors that contribute to the value of a piece.

This brings me to my evolving thoughts regarding hand-made custom furniture and it goes like this ... people will pay for art (we all know that). I believe that what a custom furniture maker does can only be considered as ... art. But furniture is also, for the most part, functional. So, would the functional characteristic of hand-made furniture make that furniture more valuable as the art that it is ... or less valuable?

You certainly already know what my answer to this question would be and I am sure that I am "preaching to the choir" on this question. Is Darrell's Aurora Desk worth $12,250? You bet it is!

[Vic]

I have been thinking about doing a blog piece on "the value of hand-made custom furniture." Don't know if I can speak with any real knowledge on the subject but am beginning to have some definite thoughts.

Over the years, I have not been a big follower of "the Roadshow" (Antiques Roadshow - PBS) but in the last year or so have become more interested. Of course, I really like anything to do with antique furniture ... especially American. But the art that is shown and the background of the art has become of particular interest to me. Do I really know anything about art? ... not really but I enjoy hearing the factors that contribute to the value of a piece.

This brings me to my evolving thoughts regarding hand-made custom furniture and it goes like this ... people will pay for art (we all know that). I believe that what a custom furniture maker does can only be considered as ... art. But furniture is also, for the most part, functional. So, would the functional characteristic of hand-made furniture make that furniture more valuable as the art that it is ... or less valuable?

You certainly already know what my answer to this question would be and I am sure that I am "preaching to the choir" on this question. Is Darrell's Aurora Desk worth $12,250? You bet it is!

I think to cross the threshold from woodworker to artist, you have to design. You have to offer, not only the best in quality, but something you cannot find elsewhere. The value(price) of anything rises when it is perceived as art. So, start sketching, think about what you like in all that you see around you. Get it on paper. Sketch, then try to figure out the how. By far, my favorite artist is Seth Rolland. He is doing things that have not been done until now. I haven't figured out how he is pricing his work. Some of the prices I've seen on his work seem undervalued to me, when you consider they are fine pieces of furniture that belong in the art world.

[Chester]

I think to cross the threshold from woodworker to artist, you have to design. You have to offer, not only the best in quality, but something you cannot find elsewhere. The value(price) of anything rises when it is perceived as art. So, start sketching, think about what you like in all that you see around you. Get it on paper. Sketch, then try to figure out the how. By far, my favorite artist is Seth Rolland. He is doing things that have not been done until now. I haven't figured out how he is pricing his work. Some of the prices I've seen on his work seem undervalued to me, when you consider they are fine pieces of furniture that belong in the art world.

Vic -

Wow! Never seen his work or heard of him before ... but ... amazing! That Oxeye Table ... Art? Without question ... and ... I can put the mail on it as I come in from the cold!

[Bobby Slack]

What is amazing about Seth is that he can visualize the piece before he slices his stock. Crazy amazing.

[jHop]

One of the dangers of doing a favor for a client on an initial piece is that the next piece you do for that client, assuming they order the same one, will either be at a loss, or drastically different from the first in cost.

I spoke with a blacksmith at a RenFaire a few years ago who quoted a price blind for an axe on a custom order. He found out afterwards that he undercharged by nearly $75 for the ash he used as the handle. So his first axe was actually below cost. Naturally, the client wanted a second one made once he realized the bargain he had just gotten. The blacksmith stated he could not match that initial price, and the client loudly bad-mouthed him throughout the faire for the rest of the day.

now, I'm not saying you'll run into someone who will "stab you in the back" for overcharging on the second when you gave them a cut rate deal on the first. But I'm more inclined to think that you will have people who appreciate your honesty up front when you tell them your initial price, and it's out of their budget. They know now that what they wanted may not be as cheap as they thought, and they have an appreciation that you value your time and skill as much (if not more) than they do. (That said, I'm not making any profits on my end, so don't quote me. )

[Chester]

AJ

for me, the bottom line was that it would ha e taken 40 hrs ... est ... to get the wood, mill the wood, cut the wood, assemble the cabinet, finish and deliver. That is an indistutable fact.

[jHop]

I wasn't disputing that. I was merely adding another point of consideration regarding the price.

[bois]

I wished I'd gotten in on this thread earlier, but things have been a little crazy for me the past few weeks. I almost dropped my laptop when I saw the initial price in the $700 range. Chester, you got some great advice here and I think you made the right choice. I turn down or price myself out of about four commissions for each one I get. I would have charged $250 for the design work alone before even talking about the commission, and I think a $30/hour shop rate is also conservative. I usually charge $50/hour and don't skimp on the time estimates. I would have actually priced this piece at closer to $2500. The worst thing you can do is a "favor" or a special price to build a piece you want in your photo gallery, as it does two things. First, it devalues the work you're doing, and sets a bad expectation for the next commission. Secondly, and perhaps more damaging, is that it contributes to price erosion in the market. I often have a very candid discussion about budget before even talking about design to weed out prospects that don't understand the cost of custom furniture which saves me a lot of time (writing up proposals is time consuming and tedious work). I definitely think you made the right decision here, and would encourage you to consider building this piece for yourself since you've put so much heart and soul into it. Carefully track all the time and expenses, and you'll find out how close your estimate was, and you'll be in a better position the next time to bid on a project. Vic is dead on that there is a much higher value placed on design than construction (for better or worse), so I would run with this one.

-Rob

[Roger T]

Interesting topic, and very timely too. I am currently in the middle of a commission job, large built in bookcase, and 2 stands for arrowhead display cases. I agonized long and hard over what to charge. I finally settled on a per hr charge, and already knew the cost of materials. Broke each of the 2 different projects apart on my bid, and presented it to the client. He never batted an eye. Going in I had the feeling I was overcharging. Well, nearing the completion of the bookcase, I am way over budget on time, and misc shop incidentals. Not even to the finishing stage yet. So by the time I am finished with the first project, I will be working for less than half of what I bid. I am pretty sure I have some fluff built into the 2 stands I have to do, but upon breaking down the 8/4 oak yesterday, I found a big void inside one of the boards. If these dont clean up to an acceptable dimension, I will have to make a 70 mile round trip to get more stock to remake the legs. I didnt buy any extra 8/4 stock just because of the expense of it, and figured the job pretty tight on material. I usually figure 15% over on materials, that helps me build up my own stock if not needed, and bails me out if I do need it.

My oldest son is a self employed artist. He paints murals on walls in homes, businesses and anywhere he can. His material cost is relatively low. But the time involved is tremendous. He charges a flat $500 a day + materials. Does prejob sketches and drawings for customer approval. And gives them a time frame for duration of job. He kept telling me, while I was agonizing over what to charge, to not be afraid to charge for my work. I could not in any way charge what I THOUGHT I should get, but what I thought was fair. Big, Big difference in the 2. So, I am happy with what I settled on, my son is happy with his work, the clients are happy. This is the most important thing.

Most people now, want Ikea prices, for custom built pieces. They generally have no clue what it takes to do one off pieces, or the amount of work that goes into pieces. Also, as a hobbyist, my shop is not set up like a regular cabinet shop. All my tools are on wheels, and have to be brought in and out as needed. Also, one thing, I have spent an inordinate amount of time just doing machine maintenance during the project. Planer knives, jointer knives, head, and on and on. This time was never calculated into my bid. I can work pretty efficiently in my shop when everything behaves well, even with the tools being brought in and out.

Well enough of my rambling, and hope this adds a little more to the thread.

Thanks for reading.

Roger

[Chester]

I wasn't disputing that. I was merely adding another point of consideration regarding the price.

AJ -

I didn't mean that as a rebuttal to your good comments. I was writing from my phone and did not take the time to really explain. I meant the "indisputable fact" in my debate with myself on doing this job was ... that it was going to take about 40-hours of my time. I just could not justify doing this for an acquaintance, giving away my shop and my time with my family for less than $30/hr. If the guy had been in need, I would have done it for nothing ... but that was not the case.

[Chester]

I wished I'd gotten in on this thread earlier, but things have been a little crazy for me the past few weeks. I almost dropped my laptop when I saw the initial price in the $700 range. Chester, you got some great advice here and I think you made the right choice. I turn down or price myself out of about four commissions for each one I get. I would have charged $250 for the design work alone before even talking about the commission, and I think a $30/hour shop rate is also conservative. I usually charge $50/hour and don't skimp on the time estimates. I would have actually priced this piece at closer to $2500. The worst thing you can do is a "favor" or a special price to build a piece you want in your photo gallery, as it does two things. First, it devalues the work you're doing, and sets a bad expectation for the next commission. Secondly, and perhaps more damaging, is that it contributes to price erosion in the market. I often have a very candid discussion about budget before even talking about design to weed out prospects that don't understand the cost of custom furniture which saves me a lot of time (writing up proposals is time consuming and tedious work). I definitely think you made the right decision here, and would encourage you to consider building this piece for yourself since you've put so much heart and soul into it. Carefully track all the time and expenses, and you'll find out how close your estimate was, and you'll be in a better position the next time to bid on a project. Vic is dead on that there is a much higher value placed on design than construction (for better or worse), so I would run with this one.

-Rob

Rob -

As usual, great comments. I have tried to shy-away from using lines like "I wouldn't work for less than $X/hour." I finally did say in a previous post "$30/hr." but I did this only after reading an excerpt from the book about "how to price your work." Any hourly price would have to include your overhead cost. What would any of us rent our shops for (per hour)? Of course, most of us wouldn't rent our shops out ... but if we did, what would that number be? And how would that affect your otherwise open use of your own shop?

Especially in times like these, I do not want to appear too proud to work for whatever $X/hr. is. Many people today need work.

But I did have a cabinet maker tell me that he could mill, cut and assemble the wood for this cabinet in 10-hours. I think that I had estimated 25-30 hours for that work. Of course, I do not do this for a living and my set-ups are going to take much longer. If I ever got that good, I would certainly base my estimates on $50/hour ... or more!

[Chester]

Interesting topic, and very timely too. I am currently in the middle of a commission job, large built in bookcase, and 2 stands for arrowhead display cases. I agonized long and hard over what to charge. I finally settled on a per hr charge, and already knew the cost of materials. Broke each of the 2 different projects apart on my bid, and presented it to the client. He never batted an eye. Going in I had the feeling I was overcharging. Well, nearing the completion of the bookcase, I am way over budget on time, and misc shop incidentals. Not even to the finishing stage yet. So by the time I am finished with the first project, I will be working for less than half of what I bid. I am pretty sure I have some fluff built into the 2 stands I have to do, but upon breaking down the 8/4 oak yesterday, I found a big void inside one of the boards. If these dont clean up to an acceptable dimension, I will have to make a 70 mile round trip to get more stock to remake the legs. I didnt buy any extra 8/4 stock just because of the expense of it, and figured the job pretty tight on material. I usually figure 15% over on materials, that helps me build up my own stock if not needed, and bails me out if I do need it.

My oldest son is a self employed artist. He paints murals on walls in homes, businesses and anywhere he can. His material cost is relatively low. But the time involved is tremendous. He charges a flat $500 a day + materials. Does prejob sketches and drawings for customer approval. And gives them a time frame for duration of job. He kept telling me, while I was agonizing over what to charge, to not be afraid to charge for my work. I could not in any way charge what I THOUGHT I should get, but what I thought was fair. Big, Big difference in the 2. So, I am happy with what I settled on, my son is happy with his work, the clients are happy. This is the most important thing.

Most people now, want Ikea prices, for custom built pieces. They generally have no clue what it takes to do one off pieces, or the amount of work that goes into pieces. Also, as a hobbyist, my shop is not set up like a regular cabinet shop. All my tools are on wheels, and have to be brought in and out as needed. Also, one thing, I have spent an inordinate amount of time just doing machine maintenance during the project. Planer knives, jointer knives, head, and on and on. This time was never calculated into my bid. I can work pretty efficiently in my shop when everything behaves well, even with the tools being brought in and out.

Well enough of my rambling, and hope this adds a little more to the thread.

Thanks for reading.

Roger

Roger -

Even with the best planning, I can also see myself overrunning the budget, especially on time. Most recently, I have been trying more to make myself slow-down. The safety issue, for some reason, is becoming more primary in my mind ... especially in cutting operations. So I spend more time in planning and set-up for cutting. This will add to estimated job time. And you make a very good point about extra time for "truing the tools" along the way. That can really chew-up some time. I do believe that the woodworker with the best set-up tools is going to make the best furniture!

[dvan1901]

This line from Rob is worth the price of admission...: "I often have a very candid discussion about budget before even talking about design to weed out prospects that don't understand the cost of custom furniture which saves me a lot of time"

If someone knows you build furniture and they come to you and say "hey, could you build me a bookcase", or whatever; I think you could save a lot of time (and time is money) by saying "what is your budget?". If they say "well, I have seen similar in XYZ furniture store for about $200" Then you can confidently say "then I would go buy it from the furniture store because HAND MADE will cost you a lot more"

Great piece of advice there Rob

[Chester]

This line from Rob is worth the price of admission...: "I often have a very candid discussion about budget before even talking about design to weed out prospects that don't understand the cost of custom furniture which saves me a lot of time"

If someone knows you build furniture and they come to you and say "hey, could you build me a bookcase", or whatever; I think you could save a lot of time (and time is money) by saying "what is your budget?". If they say "well, I have seen similar in XYZ furniture store for about $200" Then you can confidently say "then I would go buy it from the furniture store because HAND MADE will cost you a lot more"

Great piece of advice there Rob

Dvan -

Very good point ... and now I do get it! But at the beginning of this post, I didn't get it at all. I received really good advice from many contributors to this post that brought me to this point. Now I know exactly how to respond to a query like this! Thanks to all!

[dvan1901]

Hey Chester, me too! When I read Rob's comment I was like "now why didn't I think of that?!"

[Grixxly]

Very late to this thread, but I've been told and use this 'rule-of-thumb' when asked to do a piece. Before I even design, I'll get a good estimate on the size, and type of wood. Then taking materials into account I will quote materials + 3-4 x materials (depending on difficulty), e.g. If materials are $25 and the project is easy I'll charge $25 + $75 = $100. If difficult $25 + $100 = $125. For tables, assuming just skirts and legs, $200 per linear foot, e.g. 5' table is $1000. Maybe not the greatest but it has served me well. As an aside, if I don't really want to do the project, I'll charge 5-6 times materials and if they agree then the project becomes more agreeable!

[Chester]

I would probably fall into the 5-6 times materials range ... but that is because it will take me more time than a full-time cabinet maker.

I was speaking to a full-time cabinet maker the other day (in Michigan) who needed work. It was hard to preach to a guy (who is trying to feed his family) about keeping his prices up. Those of us who have "day-jobs" can reserve the right to cherry-pick for only the best work with the most accepting of clients. But, like I said, it is hard to carry that message to a guy with no work!