Building Custom Furniture on commission ($$$)

[Chester]

I was recently approached by a person at a dinner that heard me talking about woodworking. This person asked what kind of woodworking that I do and I told him that I preferred furniture. He then asked if I ever did any contract work. I told him that I had never done anything like that and that I had a "day job" that would make that difficult.

When I told my wife about the conversation, she encouraged me to meet with the guy and at least see what it was that he was looking to have built. I did meet with him and told him that I would help with the design but that I would not promise to build the piece. Further, I told him that I would help him if he wanted ideas on how to tackle the project himself or help find a cabinet maker in his area that might do the job.

I had recently gone through Bob Lange's SketchUp tutorial and had been doing a lot of small design projects with the program. I was somewhat excited about doing the design work for the needed cabinet on SketchUp and submitting it to the prospect for his comments. If you have worked in SketchUp, you will understand how I have tallied over 30-hours creating the final design (especially being new to SketchUp). My original submitted design was basically on target with my prospect but was dimensionally too big ... meaning that the whole cabinet (basically) had to be redone (even though the overall cabinet looks much the same).

I now have what is probably a finished design and am very close to having to say whether I will build the piece. I believe that the wood will cost between $200 and $250 (assuming I don't screw-up any cuts and have to buy more). I had asked the prospect if he would take the finished piece and do the wood finishing himself. He said that would be above his "pay-grade." So, I would have to buy the wood, haul the wood, mill the wood, build the cabinet, finish the cabinet and deliver the cabinet.

What to charge for this work ... and should I take the job?

• First, I have never had any illusion of supporting my family with my woodworking.
  
• Second, I know that I can not evaluate the cost of my time based on what I get paid in my day job.
  
• Third, the prospect is not a friend ... just someone I met.
  
• Fourth, I know that he would be fussy about the finished product.
  
• Fifth, this could take-up most of my winter evenings to finish.
  
• Sixth, I may wish that I had never gotten into this deal!
  
• Seventh, I am intrigued by the design and my wife is encouraging me to do it ... yikes!
  

What would you do?

Chester

[Dan S]

I think the reasons you gave to not do it, out weight the reasons to do it.

[Timberwerks]

I have to agree with Dan, this doesn't seem like the right project at this time. You'll know when the right project comes along because you won't seek advice on if you should take it, it will feel right to you and your client. I get a feeling of tension here, better to politely pass.

[Chester]

I have to agree with Dan, this doesn't seem like the right project at this time. You'll know when the right project comes along because you won't seek advice on if you should take it, it will feel right to you and your client. I get a feeling of tension here, better to politely pass.

DJO & Dan -

I looked at my post again ... trying to recognize the negativity that you had obviously seen. And, yep, it's plainly there. I think the thing that does not come through is my excitement with the design. After spending 30-hours with this baby in SketchUp, I have kind-of become a "proud papa." I really want to see somebody give birth to this child.

The other thing that I am really not saying is that I do want to do a cabinet project of some sort in the near future. I have built a lot of tables over the years ... I guess I would be a "table guy." Have not done a lot of plywood-cored cabinetry. I do think that this job would "grow me" as a woodworker. But I am not in the mood to do this for this guy as a favor. He has the $$$. However long it would take me, I know that the final product would be near perfect.

Maybe I need a shrink ... not a woodworkers forum ...

Chester

[Dan S]

With that in mind, I would make the piece for my self. Maybe your wife is encouraging you, because she wants some new furniture.

[Ben H]

Do it, but charge him accordingly.

[Beechwood Chip]

Do it, but charge him accordingly.

Here's the way I decided how much to ask when I was doing consulting while also having a "day job":

• First, I'd think about what I'd do with the time if I didn't take the job; in other words, what I'd miss by taking the job. Also think about how stressful and /or rewarding the job would be. Jobs can be both stressful and rewarding.
• I'd Imagine getting paid a large amount of money that would make me overjoyed to take this job
• Then I'd Imagine doing it for less and less money and note when I stopped being overjoyed, and when I started feeling, "you know, I'd rather spend the time doing something else than to do this and only get paid this much." That's the first tipping point.
• Then I'd imagine asking for that amount and getting turned down because I was asking too much. Would I think , "I wish I had asked for less, because I'm sorry I lost that job." Or "That's OK, because I really wouldn't want to do it for less."
• Then I'd imagine asking different amounts until I found the second tipping point.

Those two figures usually gave me a pretty good idea of whether I should take the job, and how much to ask for. Sometimes the number I came up with was ridiculously high, which meant that I should suggest that they hire someone else. Sometimes, people wouldn't take no for an answer and begged me to work for them; then, I'd tell them the number that I came up with and they'd ask, "Who were those other people that you were recommending?"

Now, if you have to get commissions to pay the mortgage and put food on the table, that's a different story.

[jimmykx250]

Have fun with the piece. Charge a FAIR number for your time, just be realistic with the amount of time. From what i have learned so far i have a tendancy to underestimate in the labor hours department. These are the perfect projects to hone your skills! Just have fun with it, and if the customer doesnt like it be prepaired to keep it! One other thing charge 1/2 the cost up front both to cover you and if he has a problem with it you will know hw wasent serious to begin with. I wish you luck- just remember have fun with it.

[Keggers]

When I'm building furniture, I build what I want to build and then either keep it or find a buyer. You might consider just building the project - taking as long as it takes to complete - then decide if you want to sell it to this guy or give it to your wife. If you decide to keep it, you'll have a much better idea of the time and materials that are involved so you can offer the next one to him at an accurate price. You'll also have more confidence while your building a project that you have commissioned to build. Of course, if he doesn't want to wait that long....flip a coin?

That's my 2 cents worth for whatever it's worth.

[Beechwood Chip]

Sometimes a commission will push you to develop techniques or styles that you wouldn't normally try. I've got a basement full of tools designed to create straight lines and flat surfaces: jointer, planer, table saw, & miter saw. A friend who does medieval LARPing has asked me if I can make stuff that looks like someone knocked it together with a hand-axe in a few minutes. I'm not sure if I'll do it, but it's got me thinking in whole different directions.

LARP == Live Action Role Playing, sort of like World or Warcraft but without computers.

[Bobby Slack]

Do it: Because you will stretch your capabilities.

Charge: Time to pick the material, the material, plus extra for mistakes, for design (may be not the 30 hours), the finishing ... and you mentioned this customer can be picky ... that means extra.

Create an agreement that this is not your main job and the job will take a while.

Make some money to treat yourself with something you want to get.

Don't do it ... because this prospect will be a pain.

Don't do it ... because the project will take time away from your family

Do it because your wife wants to get rid of you ....

[Chester]

These are exactly the kinds of responses I was hoping to get! Thanks for sharing your experience ... perspective ...humor.

I was reading something recently that said to take all the material cost and multiply by 3.5. That might be right in the range of what I was thinking ($700-$850). If he baulks at that, I will be OK with that.

Maybe another subliminal worry that I have (having never done woodworking for$$$) is, will I still love it?

Chester

[Vic]

Mind you that this incorporates much of what Beechwood Chip was saying. But, I'm assuming that's gonna be some quality ply and hardwood. I wouldn't charge less than $1500. But, like I said, I think like Beechwood Chip on price because I have a full time job and only want to do pieces I want to do. Plus, I'm not a fan of building straight up cabinets. My next furniture project will be an entertainment center. Yes, that is a cabinet, but you can design as much of yourself into a piece as you wish. Let us know what happens.

[mikem]

Chester, I think the common theme here is don't sell yourself short. While I have not taken on any commissions for woodworking, I have done quite a bit of web work on commission. What everyone has said, there were many projects that did stretch my skills and I learned more than I thought I would. Getting the work done, and learning new skills, definitely was not the difficult part.

The hard part is not selling yourself short! You need to take EVERYTHING in to consideration. Is doing it for $700-$800 worth the amount of time away from your family, possibly sacrificing a hunting trip or two? After materials this will at best yield you a $600 profit. Is that worth it? I have worked with a very particular graphic artist when doing some of my websites. Its not easy. You have to consider that in your cost as well.

To put it in perspective, for what was described as weekend of work, I would charge $500 for a website. Because of the client being so particular, it turned would turn into a month long job. While I would charge extra for any changes or add-ons, it did make it more diffucult and I never felt like I was getting out of what I was putting in. The reality, is I should have been charging closer to $1000 for each website, and doubled the time to completion.

[jimmykx250]

Just my two cents but here is how i would charge.

1.ALL materials, wood, glue, sandpaper, hinges,glides,knobs etc etc markup 15%

then sit down and figure time this is the kicker-

One thing i do when fabricating a piece with alot of cutting of sheet goods is i farm it out to my supplier. He can cut my parts more accurately than i can and it really saves my back- besides thats not where the real skills are anyway. It gives you a jump start and it saves time. But you need to find that supplier and build a relationship with him.

Then break down your time as accurately as you can.

2.sizing parts

3.sanding before assembly

4.assembly

5.finishing

6.hardware install

7.delivery? I look at this as a labor thing but should be discussed at the start of the project.

Whats the labor rate going to be? well thats a tough one, just be fair with yourself and the customer.

I wish you luck.

[Bobby Slack]

Hey man ... I was thinking about this all day. Here is what I propose. Us in the world of sales we use sometimes the "Benjamin Franklin Close"

On a piece of paper have a line in the middle

Left column state all the reasons not to do it ... on the Right column state all the reasons to do the job.

If you decide to do the job, I suggest to charge enough to make this worth while because once money is involved, the whole relationship changes.

I have done mane "freebies" and is a pain in the neck.

I hope this helps.

[iSawitFirst]

If you decide to do the job, I suggest to charge enough to make this worth while because once money is involved, the whole relationship changes.

This can NOT be over-stressed.

Get a non-refundable 50% deposit with the balance due at delivery.

I tell people, "I don't mind being tired, I don't like being hungry, but I will NOT being tired and hungry!" Get the money settled up front or you're wasting your time and make him show good faith with a deposit.

Then build the best damn cabinet in the universe.

[Bobby Slack]

I always do this. 50% down. Sometimes you can do 50% down with the order, 25% before delivery and the balance once you install the project. Good luck.

Whether you decide to do it or not, I am absolutely sure you thought it out. No regrets. Good luck with your decision.

This can NOT be over-stressed.

Get a non-refundable 50% deposit with the balance due at delivery.

I tell people, "I don't mind being tired, I don't like being hungry, but I will NOT being tired and hungry!" Get the money settled up front or you're wasting your time and make him show good faith with a deposit.

Then build the best damn cabinet in the universe.

[Chester]

This is mainly in reply to Vic & Jimmy ...

First ... Vic, you blew me out of the water with your comment about not doing the job for less than $1,500. The amount took me by surprise. Then I read down further to Jimmy's comment on breaking the job down into its component parts and then estimate time to do them. I had thought that with a wood cost of $200 to $250, a high-end price to charge would be (3.5X) $850. And that price would very likely "send him walking."

But after doing a component part time estimate, I came up with about 40-hours. I believe that I can do as good a job on this cabinet (my own design) as any professional cabinet maker. But a professional, every-day, cabinet maker would do the job in less than half that time. Even @ $30/hr., I would be up to $1,200 in labor charge. Either way, I have said that I would be OK, if my quoted price sent the prospect away. I guess that I have to decide whether I would be happy working for less than $30/hr ... or even working @ $30/hr?

I remember on NYW, Norm always built 2-examples of whatever he was building. It would be interesting to know how much less time it took him to build the second one.

Pretty sure, as this project approaches $1,500, this prospect will back away. I told him, before I started the design work, that, even if I did not build it, I would give him my SketchUp file. After really looking at this and the time that I have in it, I think that I am going to tell him that the SketchUp file will not be free. The 30-hours of tweaking that I have in the design are not going to get reimbursed. But if he wants the file, I am going to ask for $250.

Chester

PS - The above responses have been really good and helped me immensely! Keep 'em comin'

[Chester]

One other point on collection of funds ...

All of your comments on this have helped me refine how I would request payment. Up front, a non-refundable 60% would be collected. For this, I would produce a general materials list, an estimate on labor hours and a statement of general delivery date considerations (and disclaimers). Part of the up-front contract would also be an agreement to bring or send an additional 30% when the piece is assembled and ready for finishing (physical inspection would be available at that time) ... with the final 10% issued upon delivery.

What do you think?

Chester

[Chester]

Here's the way I decided how much to ask when I was doing consulting while also having a "day job":

• First, I'd think about what I'd do with the time if I didn't take the job; in other words, what I'd miss by taking the job. Also think about how stressful and /or rewarding the job would be. Jobs can be both stressful and rewarding.
• I'd Imagine getting paid a large amount of money that would make me overjoyed to take this job
• Then I'd Imagine doing it for less and less money and note when I stopped being overjoyed, and when I started feeling, "you know, I'd rather spend the time doing something else than to do this and only get paid this much." That's the first tipping point.
• Then I'd imagine asking for that amount and getting turned down because I was asking too much. Would I think , "I wish I had asked for less, because I'm sorry I lost that job." Or "That's OK, because I really wouldn't want to do it for less."
• Then I'd imagine asking different amounts until I found the second tipping point.

Those two figures usually gave me a pretty good idea of whether I should take the job, and how much to ask for. Sometimes the number I came up with was ridiculously high, which meant that I should suggest that they hire someone else. Sometimes, people wouldn't take no for an answer and begged me to work for them; then, I'd tell them the number that I came up with and they'd ask, "Who were those other people that you were recommending?"

Now, if you have to get commissions to pay the mortgage and put food on the table, that's a different story.

Beechwood -

This is a really good one! Thanks.

Chester

[PaulMarcel]

One other point on collection of funds ...

All of your comments on this have helped me refine how I would request payment. Up front, a non-refundable 60% would be collected. For this, I would produce a general materials list, an estimate on labor hours and a statement of general delivery date considerations (and disclaimers). Part of the up-front contract would also be an agreement to bring or send an additional 30% when the piece is assembled and ready for finishing (physical inspection would be available at that time) ... with the final 10% issued upon delivery.

What do you think?

Chester

Charles Neil had a great point in one of his guild episodes. He always mills more of the stock or keeps decent size offcuts to test the stain and finish. Beyond testing it, though, he'll always present the sample before finishing for the customer to sign right on the offcut that they are happy with it. That struck me as a brilliant idea... signature right on the sample. He further stated that he has them pay the last installment before delivery and installation; theory is that you won't have to go chasing that last installment after losing your bargaining token and the customer is happier on delivery day since the piece arrives, is installed, and they enjoy it without having to break out the checkbook.

[Bobby Slack]

Great point, I do the same thing on the finish. Signing the sample. And also I do the same with the money because I eliminate possible problems.

Charles Neil had a great point in one of his guild episodes. He always mills more of the stock or keeps decent size offcuts to test the stain and finish. Beyond testing it, though, he'll always present the sample before finishing for the customer to sign right on the offcut that they are happy with it. That struck me as a brilliant idea... signature right on the sample. He further stated that he has them pay the last installment before delivery and installation; theory is that you won't have to go chasing that last installment after losing your bargaining token and the customer is happier on delivery day since the piece arrives, is installed, and they enjoy it without having to break out the checkbook.

[Chester]

A page from Vic's book ...

Just sent the customer a quote for $1,500 to do this job ... includes design, build, finish, delivery & materials. We will see???

Chester

[Vic]

Yea, that's it. I should write a book. Sylvia thinks a good title could be Does That Have A$$ Matter on it? - A Guide to Spewing with Authority