Best tool/machine for squaring chisel or camber blades?

[muthrie]

I own water stones for sharpening my chisels/plane blades that already are shaped appropriately. I purchased some old Greenlee chisels that need their edge re-squared or re-shaped (they have some nicks and are out about a 16th. I also want to put on a new primary bevel). I also anticipate having to create camber, repair nicks etc in my other tools. I don't own a grinder yet and was looking to purchase one so I started reading everything I could.

I'm now officially confused.

I'm looking at the Tormeck, Veritis system and your basic dry grinder (are there other I should look at?). I don't envision being a serious tool re-haber, but I would like to be able to reshape the occasion old tool.

I'd love thoughts on which is the best solution. Is there a system that does it all? If not, how bout re-shaping and I'll stick to my stones for sharpening and honing.

[Vic]

Hi Marilyn! Kari Hultman (The Village Carpentar) did this video for Popular Woodworking on how to camber a blade. As far as most reshaping, there are many that think using a grinder removes the temper in the blade. Check out Lie Nielsen's site for all sorts of information there. Also, Bud had a great video on using sand paper to quickly sharpen your chisels. I use a combination of water stones and sand paper. I also have a variable speed Delta grinder with a white wheel I will use on occasion.

[muthrie]

I use a combination of water stones and sand paper. I also have a variable speed Delta grinder with a white wheel I will use on occasion.

Yes, I've look at Kari's video, etc. I think its the grinder question I'm really trying to answer. I use water stones and sand paper too. But what do you use when you need to take a far amount off? Do you use the Delta grinder wheel or have you upgraded to something else?

[Vic]

Yes, I've look at Kari's video, etc. I think its the grinder question I'm really trying to answer. I use water stones and sand paper too. But what do you use when you need to take a far amount off? Do you use the Delta grinder wheel or have you upgraded to something else?

Yea, I have used the Delta for hogging material. I may someday get the Tormek. It is a great machine. Jet and Grizzly have their imitation of it, too. But, I think the Tormek is the Porsch of the bunch and I getting around fine with my VW Bug:o)

[muthrie]

I may someday get the Tormek. It is a great machine.

I read some where that the Tormek stones were too soft to the heavy duty grinding. I'm still wondering if that's true or if some competitor wrote the article. There seems to be a lot of concern about burning blade with the dry method which is why I was considering.

[Sac]

I read some where that the Tormek stones were too soft to the heavy duty grinding. I'm still wondering if that's true or if some competitor wrote the article. There seems to be a lot of concern about burning blade with the dry method which is why I was considering.

While I am not sure about the density of the Tormek wheels, you can grind it just fine with a the "dry" method. Just keep a little thing of water nearby to dunk it every once in a while to keep the metal cool. You can tell when it is getting too hot, It will start to turn blue-ish. By using a Tormek you are able to use the hollow grind method, This makes sharpening and honing a little easier.

[Vic]

While I am not sure about the density of the Tormek wheels, you can grind it just fine with a the "dry" method. Just keep a little thing of water nearby to dunk it every once in a while to keep the metal cool. You can tell when it is getting too hot, It will start to turn blue-ish. By using a Tormek you are able to use the hollow grind method, This makes sharpening and honing a little easier.

Actually, you draw out temper before it turns blue. It's why I only resort to the grinding wheel in extreme cases. See this video.

[PaulMarcel]

Seems like many people just hang on to the chisel and dunk it when it gets hot. I regret that I went with a wet wheel simply because it is slower and not as versatile as, say, those variable-speed grinders occasionally on sale at Woodcraft/Rockler. You're way beyond temper with blue, how far depending on the alloy you're using.

Now "slow" with the wet wheel is still not bad. Mine has a 120 grit stone on it. I can apply a hollow grind on a new chisel pretty quickly. I won't need to do that again for quite awhile.

Mine's an 8' wheel. I haven't used a 6" wheel yet, but my suspicion is that I'd prefer the 6" for more hollow, but I haven't done the math to see if the difference is appreciable. There are 10" out there (Grizzly? they resell a German Tormek knock off with a 10" wheel). Without doing the math, I wonder if it gives enough "hollow".

[Vic]

Well, the real purpose of the hollow is both speed and ease of free hand sharpening, correct Paul? I think I saw an article not too long ago that espoused using a 6 inch wheel to give a better registry for free hand sharpening.

[muthrie]

It's why I only resort to the grinding wheel in extreme cases. See this video.

yeah, I saw this video and would prefer repairing my chisel edges on glass and sand paper. But if my chisel isn't square any more or if I want to take a straight blade and establish a camber ... I know that Chris Schwarz has sharpening method for cambered blades, but he uses the grinder to start it. I suppose I could use a wooden block on the paper to make it square again.

[muthrie]

Seems like many people just hang on to the chisel and dunk it when it gets hot. I regret that I went with a wet wheel simply because it is slower and not as versatile as, say, those variable-speed grinders occasionally on sale at Woodcraft/Rockler. You're way beyond temper with blue, how far depending on the alloy you're using.

There are 10" out there (Grizzly? they resell a German Tormek knock off with a 10" wheel). Without doing the math, I wonder if it gives enough "hollow".

Paul, what is it that you can't do with your wet wheel that you would like to do? And I didn't know about the Grizzly .. oh boy .. more choices.

[PaulMarcel]

Paul, what is it that you can't do with your wet wheel that you would like to do? And I didn't know about the Grizzly .. oh boy .. more choices.

Only saying that now, I wish I had gotten something like this 6" variable-speed bench grinder (though I wouldn't grind my bench...).

Here's what I could do with that grinder that I cannot realistically with the 8" wet grinder:

• Use an abrasive flapwheel like the Mac Mop for sanding
• Effectively use a lambswool wheel for polishing brass (strop side of the wet grinder is still too slow... 90 rpm)
• Grind custom scrapers in a reasonable amount of time
• In my opinion, I now believe the strop side is utterly useless for sharpening. My context is chisel and plane irons; turners likely disagree, but I only turn on the dance floor.

So, I cannot locate the name of the real maker, but the Grizzly 10" wet grinder is made by a company in Germany. I researched all this long ago when I eventually got the 8". Grizzly back then imported the 8" model and, ahem, so did Harbor Freight. That company made a new 10" model and Grizzly wanted it exclusively so they dropped the 8". So, yes, the HF 8" wet grinder is made by the same German company that makes the Grizzly 10" except HF put it in some freakin' neon glow-in-the-dark orange. But you can get it for a song, off-key even. That's the one I bought. It came with a very nice 120 grit blue oxide stone that cuts very smoothly and nicely; yes, you need to dress the wheel before first use like all other wet grinders. It also takes Tormek and Jet accessories.

So that only complicates things, right?

But still... last year, I swear every week that variable-speed 6" grinder was on $99 sale, but not so this year. When it does, I'm snagging it. One hidden cost of these grinders it that they typically come with poured concrete for wheels; useless. You'll need to buy some nice friable grinding wheels. People like Norton, though I have no experience with them (but, really, they are like the abrasive people so...)

6" vs 8": presumably you want a deeper "valley" in the hollow to postpone re-grinding as long as possible. Assuming a chisel with a 1/4" bevel face. If you grind a hollow to the point where there's a tiny flat of the original bevel on the heel and tip of the bevel (heel by chisel shaft, tip where the action is), an 8" wheel will give you a hollow 1.95 thousandths deep. A 6" wheel will give you a hollow 2.61 thousands deep. When you hone, you take off material measured in thousandths so that gives you likely a few more honings before you need to grind. As the wheel diameter increases, the depth of the hollow decreases. A 10" wheel would give you 1.56 thousandths.

I hurt my brain doing that math.

Here's the equation for reference... I didn't reduce it in any way:

where:

C is the width of the chisel bevel (heel to toe, not the width of the chisel cutter)

R is the radius of the wheel

[muthrie]

Only saying that now, I wish I had gotten something like this 6" variable-speed bench grinder (though I wouldn't grind my bench...).

Yeah, the Delta and a Norton wheel seems like a very practical solution. And certainly less expensive. I bet about 2 weeks after Christmas, it'll go on sale.

So my brain hurt just reading all that math!

[Vic]

Math is HHHAAARRRD!

[BuilderBill]

Marilyn,

Just to add to your confusion, I'll say I'm very happy with my old Tormek(it's so old it's green, not that it makes a difference).

Before that, my fave grinder was an old half-speed(1725 RPM) Delta 10" of my sensei's, it stood beside the lathe mounted with a couple of the Norton white wheels. Unfortunately, they don't make it no more and what they do offer now doesn't hold a candle to the old tools..... So when I decided to buy a sharpening grinder, about the only choice was the Tormek.

I like the 10" wheels, they leave a good deal more metal immediately behind the edge than the 6" or 8" wheels. It's definitely a hollow-grind, not as severe as the smaller wheels but distinct nonetheless. If you add a micro-bevel when you hone you'll probably never notice the difference. If you hone to the grind angle you'll probably have to regrind sooner. Haven't noticed any softness in the stone, things take a bit longer because of the slower rotational speed but the standard Tormek stone seems to hold up pretty well as long as you're conscientious about using the whole width. Don't waste your $ on the finer-grit Japanese stones some vendors offer, it's easier and cheaper to do the final honing on waterstones. For my carpenter's chisels, I'll smooth the wheel and buff them on the strop wheel 'cause it's quick'n'dirty but for my shop chisels and plane blades the Tormek is just to establish a good hollow grind and then it's off to the waterstones. Regardless of all the marketing hype, there just ain't no one-stop-shop when it comes to sharpening....

Is it worth the money? At today's prices($600 for the base system) I'd have to say no. When I bought mine it cost roughly the same as my buddy's 10" Delta which set him back $369 plus the wheels in 1984. Maybe I paid $400, it's hard to remember but it was in 2000-something, not that long ago. But if I could find one used in the $300-400 range I'd consider it a good deal. If not, I'd go with a good 10" industrial grinder like the Jet and some good wheels.

HTH,

Bill

[jHop]

I was watching the Woodsmith podcast on sharpening turning tools, and the demonstrator put forth another couple of arguments on the grinder issue.

His comment was that the larger the wheel, the faster the outer edge of the wheel is spinning. This can, over time, affect the grind you put into a tool. Keeping in mind that the more you grind, the smaller the wheel, and consequently, the slower the speed of the outer edge. (this is math I haven't bothered to verify, as I have a hard enough time keeping tabs on all my purchases at the grocery store...)

Everybody has mentioned the Tormek, but nobody has mentioned the Jet wet-grind set up. Is it a matter of picking the one that everybody "knows," or that nobody has the Jet?

Personally, being on a limited budget, I have just a Craftsman 1/2 horse 6" grinder, with the stock wheels on it. I'm trying to save for the 120 wheels, but that's not going to happen until next spring. (Need to get a drill press and some new drill bits first, since I ended up glueing a couple together last night accidentally.)

[muthrie]

Thanks! This is all good input. Obviously, there are a lot of options on how to do it.

[kesac]

Thanks! This is all good input. Obviously, there are a lot of options on how to do it.

I rough out, when needed most of my chisels with a belt sander. If you just watch and take your time, you will not hurt the temper. After that, I use stones, sandpaper, diamond plates, polishing compounds, or just about any abrasive thing, to keep the edge. I usually strop on a piece of aluminum,and I can keep chisels sharp enough to shave with with a minimu of daily touch up.

When I really abuse a tool it gets thrown back into the rainy day projuect pile, so I can take the time to love on it, as it deserves, rather than have to hurry and jump thru hoops to fix it right now, while I am trying to get something else done.

[tombuhl]

I don't have the experience of some posters here.

But until I feel that I really know what is up, I like to stick with low tech (doesn't mean cheap tools...usually).

Meaning rather than a system I'd go with very basic 6" wheel grinder with "cool" Norton (or equivalent) wheels.

Or very low tech and using sandpaper and some support block to keep perpendicular and lots of time and patience.

Seems there is some conflicting input here on prospects of "bluing."

I 2nd Vic's suggestion that once it turns color, you've gone too far.

Even with "cool" wheels you can blue the tool very quickly on narrow chisels or even at the end of wider surface as there is less material to absorb the heat build up.

I say dunk frequently. Not really a big deal.

A while back Marc posted his video on sharpening systems and procedures. Watching that might help you settle into the decision task, even though much of this has a multitude of solutions.

Probably not a perfect answer. More a case of what will work for you, in a manner you are comfortable with.

Are you familiar with Joel Moskowitz' blog? At ToolsforWorkingWood.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/

He has had number of posts on sharpening and is similar to Chris Schwarz in the depth of his interest, curiosity and depth of his discussions.

Best of luck with your endeavor.

[Bhelart]

Hi Marilyn,

This post may be too late but I'll offer it anyway. I love my Tormek, never regretted it's purchase.

Now, understand, before I bought the Tormek I bought a delta flat water grinder and tried the flat sand paper grinders. Both worked but I found deficiencies in each of them and ended up selling them on ebay. Ultimately after spending a lot of money I finally caved in a bought the Tormek, ten years ago. No regrets, It has a lot of options and jigs available but it's slow speed and flexibility allow me to grind some tools by hand and shape them to my preference. I just finished using the Tormek to profile a new Hock plane blade to my preferred angle and camber, I use it yesterday to grind a higher angle on my low angle smoothing blade.

It's versatile, safe, cool, doesn't ruin tools, and I can use it to sharpen anything; my planes, chisels, carving tools and those turning tools which require a better edge. I also use it to keep an edge on my kitchen knives and other misc cutting tools around the house.

I spent a lot on money on other tools they all worked for certain purposes but the Tormek has proven to be worth every dollar. I have no regrets on that purchase.