davestanton Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Stick with me on this topic. I guess this has been done before, separate dust so your filters stay clean. But every solution looked to cost money or to be a bit convoluted for my likes. My problem is, I have a shop vac and a triton dust bucket, they used to work fine until I started using MDF which has insanely fine particles that clog the filter in the lid of the dust bucket. I want a cheap solution. My plan is to fashion a disc from half inch ply that will snugly push fit into the dust bucket, about half way down. Around the perimeter of the disc I will cut a series of openings that are angled to act as a set of cutting blades to take the solids out of the air stream and deposit them in the lower chamber. Keep coming back to this thread as I create, recreate and pigheadedly attempt to get a better result than I have at present. The total cost of this project should be around $5 if my first plans work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I recommend looking into the Thien Separator. Thien started about where you are, and after many cycles of trial and error has come up with a simple design that people say works really well. It can be adapted to many different sizes and configurations. Google for thien separator , but I'd start here:Trash Can TopperCyclone Lid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Another vote for the Thien separator. Phil has already done all the figuring out. All you have to do is build the thing. -- Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 hmmm, I had seen those devises and as I had warned everyone, I am pigheaded and always think I can do it better. So, my first attempt was a flop, now I will try a the dust bin lid style separator. I notice Phil's 90 degree bend entry from tool to chamber is in opposition to what I would say is the natural direction of a cyclone. In the southern hemisphere I know that water will naturally rotate clockwise in a vortex and that in the northern hemisphere, it is anti clockwise. I presume it is the same with wind generated cyclones? This could be a major factor when I design mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Ok, a guy in Australia has just built one which seems to be a lot easier for me because he speaks the same language regarding measurements and also he uses locally available materials that I can grab. The Australian guy's comments are at the end of the set of posts. http://www.cgallery....php?topic=137.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 In the southern hemisphere I know that water will naturally rotate clockwise in a vortex and that in the northern hemisphere, it is anti clockwise. I presume it is the same with wind generated cyclones? In the northern hemisphere water drains in whatever direction it is stirred. If it's not stirred, the direction it drains in is determined by whatever currents are in the water from when it was filled. It is true that absolutely still water will drain one way in the North and the opposite in the South, but I wouldn't worry about it in designing anything. Here's my source, The Straight Dope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Dave, One way to remain moderately rebellious and pigheaded when building your Thien separator would be to use a tangential entry port rather than coming in from the top through an elbow. (The picture shows what I mean.) This eliminates one sharp bend in the airflow, which has to be a good thing, and I suspect (but can't confirm) that it makes the separator work a little better. With this arrangement, the exhaust port still goes straight up through the middle of the lid. -- Russ or (your choice). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 make shure you use good air filter when you are working on mdf i hear its murder on you lungs so be safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Have you considered the buckets that have water in them to catch the fine dust? They are often used for sheetrock/drywall/gypsum board/mud sanding. Otherwise, you might ponder the ratio of bucket size to particle fall out. A bucket too small might make it difficult to have all the dust fall out particularly the small stuff. Some of what causes the fallout is going from a small tube to a big tube/space. On a whole nother tangent: On youtube a guy made an interesting Cyclone using soda bottles. As long as you are thinking this thing up, consider how to attach it to your vac so that it saves space and moves with the vac if you have not already. Although, If I remember correctly yours is in a cabinet. Edited August 22, 2011 by VitalBodies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 To answer a few posts and keep you up to date. MDF is a product that releases fine particles. I am told that the main issue is the glues that are used in manufacturing the board...and also that plywood is just as dangerous due to the glues used to bond the layers together. Some of you may know that I have recently purchased a full head filter unit purlite xstream. As I have a beard and mustache, it works by blowing filtered air over my face, not by me sucking air through a filter that may not get a proper seal against my skin. My pigheadedness took a new direction today. Living in Australia the price of most tools if they are manufactured in USA come at a cost to me, generally twice the price. This was the thing turning me away from the dust deputy. We are expected to pay $189 for it, something I just couldn't bring myself to do when amazon are selling the cyclone only for $39. My problem there was that Amazon will not post to Australia because they don't want to upset the manufacturer who has deals with vendors in other countries. I circumvented this by getting a friend to buy it and post it over for me. I have to wait a little while but that is ok. I have spent hours and hours researching different methods of trying to remove fine dust particles from the airstream prior to it going to my shop vac and honestly, I think the DD is probably the most likely to give me the best result mostly due to the speed the cyclone achieves. The object of the game for me is to stop my filter bag and cylindrical filter in my vac from clogging. In reality, if I have to buy 5 bags a year for the vac, I will be happy. I still have my dust helmet to look after my health. The size and portability will be easy as well. As you can see in the picture the rolling cabinet that I bought as a flatpack and assembled is just what I wanted. The vac and the triton dustbucket sit comfortably inside. The dustbucket will have the dust deputy fitted to the top. A small operation of cutting a hole in the cabinets timber top to allow the cyclone to protrude. The hose from the vac to the top of the DD will be exposed and the hose that connects to the inlet will be zip tied to the boom arm I made from 50mm pvc pipe. Rationalising the cost of the DD delivered when I found an economical way to purchase it against my time saw an end to this project getting me to a point of do or die. lol. I will try water in the bottom of the triton dust bucket to see if that stops the top filter from clogging as well. The concern I have is that I may get moist air entering the shop vac and that may be disastrous. Any thoughts before I go there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 http://www.sandkleen...st%20page_2.jpg I do not know that much about this other than I read some about it when researching dust. The ports were to small for my needs but the concept is worth testing. Is your vac a wet/dry vac? That is nice looking head set, how do you like using it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Thanks for the link. I will have a look at it. Regarding the headset, it is a purchase that I made that if I were to live my life over again, I would have got it much sooner! The first couple of times I wore it I thought I had made a mistake, heavy, uncomfortable...but after a while I became accustomed to it, how to wear it correctly, the right tension on the head strap etc. and now I hardly notice it. The funny thing though is when you get an itchy nose, it takes a while to train yourself to lift the visor a little rather than try to scratch straight through it, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 http://www.sandkleen...st%20page_2.jpg I like this idea, except that I think the long inlet tube into the separator will stir up the dust in the bottom of the tub and send it out the outlet. I'd modify it to use a (wait for it...) Thien Separator. The big win of the Thien over other designs is that when the dust settles in the catch area, there's not much air flow to stir it back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) I like this idea, except that I think the long inlet tube into the separator will stir up the dust in the bottom of the tub and send it out the outlet. I'd modify it to use a (wait for it...) Thien Separator. The big win of the Thien over other designs is that when the dust settles in the catch area, there's not much air flow to stir it back up. Remember that there is water in the bottom so the dust snorkels through the water thus causing the dust to be trapped. The bucket they show is usually used for sanding drywall (fine dust only) so one would likely need to make something more substantial for wood saw dust. Edited August 23, 2011 by VitalBodies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I was under the impression that the diagram showed that the inlet to the water bucket was not to go into the water. I actually gave this a go today and was pleasantly surprised. A huge reduction of fines on the filter in the top of the dust bucket. There is a wave formed in the bucket where the water is. This helps to saturate any dust that hits the surface as there is also a cyclonic effect inside the dust bucket. My next thing to try when the DD arrives is to mount the DD to a container on top of my cart. The suction hose will travel through my dust bucket which will be 1/4 full with water then to the shop vac. I am hoping to be able to remove the dust collecting bag in the shop vac and just have the cylindrical filter below the motor. This has become exciting again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 With thanks to Vitalbodies, I am getting good results with the water trap, even better I hope when I fit the first stage cyclone. Have a look at this video of my progress so far http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhLTOyNPlCI 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 Very exciting! I have some more ideas also, that I will try to write about soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Even more success today. Will post another video on youtube later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 I have made a second video. This one has excluded 2 of the filters that were in the system. The filter in the lid of the Triton dust bucket and also the large bag from within the shop vac leaving the motor corrugated filter in place. I have done this by using a short length of 1 inch conduit. This is not my completed setup. I am still waiting on the dust deputy to arrive and it will be the first stage of separation. The water trap I am showing here is intended for the super fines that the dust deputy does not trap. I think DD claim they remove 99%, I am trying to get rid of that last 1%. I am in need of feedback to try to get this to work as efficiently as possible. Please post your ideas here and maybe we can all benefit from an inexpensive item that we can put into practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXD4LtG17X4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Nice! I still think you should try this with the TOOL PORT going under the surface of the water. Ideally you might need a three stage system if you are going to catch the big shavings - like you said. 1: The big stuff going into a bucket from the DD. 2: The water bucket - for fines. 3: The vac/bucket - for NOTHING : ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Not keen. I tried the inlet being lengthened, so, a bit closer to the water and it was a disaster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Not keen. I tried the inlet being lengthened, so, a bit closer to the water and it was a disaster! But did you try it under water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 But did you try it under water? Absolute disaster....again. Much better result to let the cyclone pass over the water and trap the fines by slowing them down as they become wet rather than kick up a water spout from the depths of the bucket. Triton in that case would be the god of the oceans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitalBodies Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Absolute disaster....again. Much better result to let the cyclone pass over the water and trap the fines by slowing them down as they become wet rather than kick up a water spout from the depths of the bucket. Triton in that case would be the god of the oceans! Might be that the bucket is small compared to the power of the vacuum. Did it make a mess or just not work as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 That may be the case but my concerns now lie with sucking too much moisture through my vac. Passing dust over the water surface to me would be less likely to create a wet filter in my vac than pulling bubbles of air through the water and hence slowing the speed of the cyclone. Again this is theory but will think about the process a bit more over the next day or so. The subconscious has to wrestle with the idea as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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