Kitchen Cabinet refinishing problems

[jadej]

Hello,

I am in the middle of refinishing all of the doors and drawers in my entire kitchen.

I am using an oil base stain from Sherwin Williams and finishing with Arm-R-Seal semi-gloss.

I had all of the doors stripped professionally to save some time.

I sand everything down using 150 grit and sometimes use 220. After I use a shopvac with brush attachment to pull out the dust.

The cabinets are made of oak (very old, about 30 years or more).

The stain is penetrating pretty well, but it does not dry very well. The directions on the can say a finish coat can be applied after only 1 hour dry time, but I have not tried that. I let them dry at least overnight before applying the first coat of arm-r-seal.

Even after multiple days of drying, when you wipe the doors with a clean rag, stain residue wipes off.....is this normal?

The initial seal coat ends up with lots of what looks like dust and stain particles rising to the surface. I spent a lot of time sanding between coats to get them flattened out on the first batch of doors. ( I am new to this procedure) Sometimes the imperfections were unable to be removed. I have built up to as many as 4-6 coats of arm-r-seal.

The latest batch, I put the seal coat down thick and went back and wiped it all off with a rag after a few minutes. The rag ends up the color of the stain, but all of the specs and residue wipe off clean.

Questions:

Should I continue to put on heavy coats and wipe off clean until no residue rises up?

Is it normal for the stain to come off even after dry, but before the finish has been applied?

Am I missing something altogether?

I have read some books (Bob Flexner, Michael Dresdner) and spent time consulting with a local woodworking company, but obviously still need some help.

I really appreciate any input........THANKS!

[AceHoleInOne]

I understand you are using Sherwin Williams brand of stain. Please give us more info like the actual product name or a link to it?

Sounds like your applying the Arm-R-Seal on real thick and wet. Letting it sit on the wood and then wiping all your finish off the wood???? So what is happening, the Arm-R-Seal is reactivating the stain underneath and getting push-back up through the coarse grain of the oak. When your wiping it back, your taking the stain up, as well as, the finish.

Not sure why they tell you to apply the Arm-R-Seal and then wipe it back off. Arm-R-Seal, you want to build a protective film over the wood for protection in the kitchen environment. By wiping it back you are removing the build of finish.

I have more thoughts, but would like to get an Ideal of the stain you are using, how it was applied....and are you saying the stain drys all lumpy and full of residue......? Oak wood pores are very porous and act like retention ponds. Are you wiping back the stain good after applying?

-Ace-

[jadej]

Hello Ace

I am using Sher-wood wiping stain from Sherwin Williams

I apply with a brush and wipe it off well with a rag within minutes of application

The stain dries to the touch quickly, but I noticed that if I run a clean cloth over the surface, stain will release and discolor the rag

My first coat of arm-r-seal I have applied with both a foam brush or a rag and it looks like bits of stain or dust.....OR WHATEVER (not completely sure what it is) shows up in the finish. It's not just a few specs, it is quite thick all over the surface. Initially I let it dry overnight and I would apply another coat and let that dry also before I began sanding between coats with 320 sandpaper. I am not happy with the results using this method. There ends up being too many imperfections that need to be sanded out and I can't get them all. Sometimes it's just plain ugly. I have been putting on 4-6+ layers in an attempt to get a smooth surface.

The wood is very porous and I assume that bits of sawdust and stain are releasing when the finish is applied. This continues to happen until the pores are sealed. I have seen in books and videos that the first seal coat can be applied thick to fill the pores with the excess being wiped off. (the video from this website shows that method) When I say I apply it on heavy, I am, but the wood is sucking it up like water. I am not wiping off a lot of excess finish, but I am wiping off all of the crud that is rising up so I won't have to try and sand it out later (which I can't do...it's too much).

Is this more clear?

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it.

[AceHoleInOne]

Well from what I'm hearing, yes you need to baby sit the pieces and keep wiping back any of the push back. I'm thinking you need to keep doing what your are doing until you get satisfactory grain filling?

As far as still getting stain in a rag after the stain has dried. Could be the pigments are a little heavy around the grain. What are your climate conditions in your shop? Warm/Cold/Dry/Humid? Perhaps needs more time to dry?

Try giving your Sherwin Williams Dealer a crack at your problems or staining techniques. They should back the products they sell and no question is a dumb question. Further, Sherwin Williams suggests a "sealer," may be applied 30 min after application. That typically is referred to a commercial available sealer or sanding sealer that drys fast and builds fast and is easy to sand and will lock in your stain. Other finishing products could be a glaze or stain re-coat after 30min.

To me it sounds everything you have done is correct. Try contacting the the company that commercially stripped your doors and such. Are they finish ready? Did they wash all the stripping material off the wood? I like to give any stripped wood a good wash with mineral spirits if using oil-based or water-based a 50/50 water and denatured alcohol washing.

Could you perhaps post a picture of the issue?

-Ace-

[jadej]

I have let the doors dry from overnight to a few days and there is always some stain that releases onto a rag. It appears to be collecting within the pores. The pieces are nice and smooth before and after staining, but as soon as the finish hits it, the "push back" shows up within seconds.

I started the project with high heat and high humidity and am now finishing with cool temperatures and low humidity and the problem is the same.

I can't post a picture at this time, but maybe later. I have one batch of doors left to stain and finish.

I like your term "push back". That appears to be what is happening. Do you see that often?

The company who stripped the doors did a good job and are pretty knowledgeable and trustworthy. I spoke with them a few weeks ago, but I no longer live in that town so I don't have access to them.

I will try wiping with mineral spirits before staining the next batch and see if that helps.

Thanks for your help!

[AceHoleInOne]

After washing the wood. Let dry real good, the longer the better. Because the mineral spirits will re-wet the grain and wood, could cause your stain to take up lighter in color.

-Ace-

[TimV]

I agree with Ace. It sounds like it is bleed out from the pores of the wood. I would not apply the stain with a brush. You are applying an extreme amount of stain in that method. I would use a rag and wipe on the stain. Depending on the depth of the color you want, you may have to wipe on another coat of stain. But this method, will have less stain going into the pores of the oak.

[dwacker]

If your using sherwood water based wiping stain the stuff will rewet for days even weeks. Its made to be used with a sprayed top coat. When you use a wipe on finish your going to rewet the stain and lift it.

Don

[Jfitz]

Definitely wipe down the oak with mineral spirits after vacuuming - you'll be surprised how much more dust you pick up. It sounds like you're doing OK applying the stain (I usually use rag, but just make sure you wipe off the excess and let it dry *thoroughly*.). I also would like to suggest spraying a sealer on as your first coat on top of stain - perhaps shellac, to seal in the stain - and then proceed with the coats of varnish; or, spray your finish.

[jadej]

thanks a lot for the responses

I just used the stain they recommended at Sherwin Williams. They didn't give me any options, just "use this". It is an oil based stain, not water.

what type of stain do you guys recommend when brushing/wiping on arm-r-seal as a top coat?

I have tried wiping on the stain with a rag and the color is much lighter.

The can says it can be applied with a brush and left on for up to 10 minutes before wiped off. ( I didn't do that, only a minute or so....the time it takes to apply the stain to one or two pieces)

I have found that the directions that comes with stuff and also the advice you get from people at the store varies a lot.

This process is truly an art........an art that can make you pull your hair out:)

thanks again!

[dwacker]

Post a link or part number to the exact stain you are using.

Don

[dtrust]

So far looks like you're getting good advice. I would only add two things...

I've had great luck sealing problem stain with a light coat of dewaxed shellac (sanding sealer).

Even Arm-R-Seal I wipe on instead of brushing. Much less problems with dust that way, at least in my experience. My kitchen cabinets were redone about 10 years ago using that method (but with Minwax wipe-on Poly), and they still look great.

(oh yeah, like TimV, I also put stain on with a rag rather than a brush.)

[jadej]

I spoke with a Sherwin Williams guy on the phone and confirmed that the wiping stain is NOT what you want to use with a wipe on finish. The stain will rewet and move around which is exactly what it is doing.

Next time I will come here for recommendations. I brought a sample of what I was going to finish into Sherwin Williams and went with their recommendation which was incorrect. I was even dealing with one of the managers.

I do not have the option to spray on the finish and I am two thirds done with the project, which is big (30+ pieces) so I will chalk it up to....live and learn.

thanks for the help, it's much appreciated

[dwacker]

I spoke with a Sherwin Williams guy on the phone and confirmed that the wiping stain is NOT what you want to use with a wipe on finish. The stain will rewet and move around which is exactly what it is doing.

Next time I will come here for recommendations. I brought a sample of what I was going to finish into Sherwin Williams and went with their recommendation which was incorrect. I was even dealing with one of the managers.

I do not have the option to spray on the finish and I am two thirds done with the project, which is big (30+ pieces) so I will chalk it up to....live and learn.

thanks for the help, it's much appreciated

Sherwin Williams caters to pro shops and finishers. Most of their stains are low voc and re wettable meaning the top coat needs to be sprayed which most pro shops are going to do without asking anyways. They used to have a homeowner line that was more user friendly but most of the retail stores now just carry minwax instead.

Don