rbbauer00 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have a few pieces of wood floor samples that I think would make an awesome box. The plan is to use this wood for the sides and frame for the top and spalted maple veneer panel in the top. Something like this: I think the wood is Kempas; or possibly something entirely different altogether. The grain is beautiful dark flowing lines on a deep red background. When I ran the underside on the jointer, I got this: There is definitely some red in there and I can see the flowing Angel-Hair like lines in the grain, but that dark black isn't there. I assume there is a dye or stain on the surface, but how do you get the black lines? I've thought of filling the pores with epoxy or pore filler, but have no experience with either. The finish doesn't have to match exactly, but I'm going for as similar a look as I can get. Thanks in advance for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 What do you want to top coat it with? Try putting just a coat or two of arm r seal on it so you get an idea what direction you need to go. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm confused. Your trying to recreate the color you took off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I took the color off the bottom of the piece of flooring. The original surface is still there. However when I cut the joinery into the piece, It will chip the edges of the finish, so I want to be able to mimic what was originally there. Plus the underside has grooves cut into it for glueing it to the subfloor, so that would have to be finished to be used on the inside of my box. Also the tongue and grooves had to be cut off, leaving a raw edge on the board. I've done a little googling on the subject and apparently there are water and oil based fillers. If I use a water based dye stain, say general finishes Empire Red, should I use an oil based filler or water based filler? Which should I put on first? I'm thinking if I used a pore filler with some black Japan Color pigment plus a dye stain followed by several coats of polyurethane, I can get something similar. Will that work? What order should I follow when doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 So your trying to match the board resting on the table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 So your trying to match the board resting on the table? Yes. I am wanting to use up some wood I already have. I have two of these boards that are about 2 1/2 feet long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMadson Custom Wood Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I've done a little googling on the subject and apparently there are water and oil based fillers. If I use a water based dye stain, say general finishes Empire Red, should I use an oil based filler or water based filler? Which should I put on first? I'm thinking if I used a pore filler with some black Japan Color pigment plus a dye stain followed by several coats of polyurethane, I can get something similar. Will that work? What order should I follow when doing this? I don't think you need to go with a filler. In simplified terms, there are two different kinds of stain. The first type colors the liquid like food coloring. The other type suspends solids in the liquid that get blinded to the surface. Paint is an extreme example of this. Some are a combination of both. I think you need the combo type. The solids can be very dark and get stuck in the grain while the dye part colors the rest. Most of your Minwax stains come in this combo variety. That's why you have to stir up that sludge on the bottom of the can. Someone else might be able to add the right terms to my ramblings but the concept is still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I don't think you need to go with a filler. The veins in this wood are quite deep. Will a gel stain still give the "mirror finish" I'm trying to achieve? I'll cut some small pieces to test the different stains, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMadson Custom Wood Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I didn't see that you were going for a mirrored finish. I've never used grain filler either, sorry I can't help you there. However, depending on how deep the grain is, you could still achieve the same thing with just the clear coat. It just might take several layers with light sanding between each. I am confident though, that the contrast of dark grain compared to the lighter top wood could be achieved with the right stain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatworks Today Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 If I had to take a first stab at this match, I'd probably look at the staining as a 2 part process. Round one would be going over with a black filler / gel stain, let that dry and lightly sand the surface so the black is only left in the deeper grains. Then go over with a red mahogany stain (or something of the like).. Finally a finish. Looking at the 2nd pic after planing, there is still some black left in the deeper areas; which is why I'd suspect a 2 part staining process.. Just a guess. Another thought would be to use a technique that classic boat builders use (Chris Craft, Hacker Craft, etc). They use the same red mahogany stain, but for areas / coamings that are traditionally a very deep brown (almost black) they mix a little black oil based paint into the red stain / filler. Everything that's used for this is an oil base from start to finish (no pun intended :-) Here's an example of what I'm referring to.. This was a Hacker that I refinished a couple years ago.. http://www.millerboatworks.com/?110510000000 Page 3 gives the best closeup... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Agree that grain filler was probably used. Woodwise is a good commercial water-based filler and comes in Ebony color. Woodwise is used in the hardwood flooring business as a wood filler/grain filler. I can get a gallon of the stuff for about $20.00 and they do sell in smaller sizes. Go to your local hardwood floor supplier they can sell it to you. Woodwise works great with water-based stains and dyes it's commercial grade and sands pretty easy. Matter of fact if you write General Finishes, they should suggest Woodwise with their products along with a few more. For color, I see more of a red/brown or brown/red. I'm thinking trying General Finishes cinnamon dye (red/brown) or their vintage cherry (brown/red) then adjust with a black cherry stain. Or go out and buy some transtint dyes honey amber, brown mahogany, black and some orange, (expensive yes) and play to adjust into your color. Another helpfully tool is to get a color wheel or go to Rit dyes website they have a color mixing thing...sortas get your mind in contact with how to mix color and get you pointed in the right direction. If this were me, why not plane the other side and start with a clean slate. Don't forget to do test boards taking it all the way to your topcoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Woodwise is a good commercial water-based filler and comes in Ebony color... ...If this were me, why not plane the other side and start with a clean slate. Don't forget to do test boards taking it all the way to your topcoat. I do indeed plan to plane the other side. I just don't want to lose my reference while I'm trying to copy it. The woodwise product sounds like an awesome place to start. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 You cant even consider color until you know what top coat your going to use and how it will affect color. Second check the finish being matched. Is it a stain or tinted top coat? Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 You cant even consider color until you know what top coat your going to use and how it will affect color. Second check the finish being matched. Is it a stain or tinted top coat? Don Many ways to skin a cat. I do color first and topcoat last. Water-based finishes are clear. Oil finishes are amber. Not difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 You cant even consider color until you know what top coat your going to use and how it will affect color. Second check the finish being matched. Is it a stain or tinted top coat? Don I'm not sure what topcoat I want. I imagine I would use a clear water-based finish, but I'm not sure. Since I only have two of these boards and I am making a box from scratch, I only want to mimic this finish. I don't necessarily have to match it exactly. What I like about the way the boards are finished is the dark, almost black, lines in the grain. That black completely disappeared when I face jointed the board and I want to bring it back when I get to the finishing step. The tint of the red could be anything close to what's already there; it's just going to be refinished after I build the box anyway. The topcoat then would be whatever was compatible with the stain I used. What is on it now looks like a clear topcoat. There are probably around 10 coats given this board was designed to be walked on. I probably won't use that many for just a box, but it does have a nice sheen. I have a very limited finishing experience. Most of what I do is very simple: Seal-A-Cell plus Arm-R-Seal or another General Finishes Semi-Gloss clear finish. I've used a gel stain before as well. I've never used pore filler or dye or tried to match anything before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatworks Today Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Here's the process I would do; pretty simple and I think it will give what you're looking for.. I would sand the face with 80 grit paper and a block (sand with the grain), spritz some water on to raise the grains, let dry and give it a wipe down with an oil based black grain filler. By having the grains raised, this will allow the black filler to get caught in the deep "troughs" of the grain. You don't necessarily need to fill the grains, just get some in there to give the effect you're looking for; but DO rub and work it in with a heavy cloth or burlap. At this point the entire piece will look black; that's ok.. Step 2 takes care of that! Let this dry and either block sand with 220 grit until the face is clean wood again (leaving behind only the black streaks in the grains) OR use a card scraper to accomplish the same result. From what I can see, Kempas is similar to a Santos mahogany (actually looks very similar which means it should have a reddish color naturally when a finish is applied.) The reason I suggested an oil based stain in the beginning over a water based is because the type of stain used somewhat dictates the type of finish that can go over top of it. A water based finish (top coat) does not bring out the color of wood quite as well as an oil or lacquer.. Now I think I'd take the pieces and let them sit in the sun for an hour or two to darken, then apply your finish (a type of varnish or poly should work; essentially something that finishes amber in color; not clear). If you need to, you can even add a little red tint to the finish before applying. But, I suspect that this is a wood that is going to darken naturally with age; similar to cherry and mahogany... With a little luck, this should give the overall appearance you're looking for... SHOULD being the key phrase :-) Post some pics after you do it!! Hope this helps! Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 From what I can see, Kempas is similar to a Santos mahogany Incredible that you mention this - Santos Mahogany is what the floor dealer thought this was until we looked at the box it came in. You may have hit on the best approach so far. I'm working at my real job until Friday (seven 12-hour days, yuck!), but I can order the filler and finish and maybe do a test piece or two by next weekend. I still want to try Ace's Woodwise products, too. I'll definitely post pics. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 IMO your over thinking it. Its pre finished flooring so think about the processed used. The black is not black the absence of light makes any pigment appear black. Color is all about light. That piece of flooring was most likely tinted, sealed then top coated. The tint all be it reddish the deeper grain does not get the light so it appears black to your mind. If you sprayed on a mixture of transtint the right color mix into lacquer thinner with a bit of precat as a binder. All the deep grain would appear black while the surface appeared red . Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatworks Today Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 IMO your over thinking it. Its pre finished flooring so think about the processed used. The black is not black the absence of light makes any pigment appear black. Color is all about light. I thought about that, and went round and round with the idea, but the one thing that stood out to me is the 2nd pic after it's been planed. On the left side there is still remnants of black in the grain. Could be a matter of ageing, simply black grains, or left over from the finishing process. Still not sure.. But I do think what was suggested will work.. Maybe?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 The black is not black the absence of light makes any pigment appear black. Color is all about light. Don Is that also true of yellow pigments? You know the old saying...all hotel rooms look alike after you turn off the light Black pigments are added to a stain to offer contrast by lodging in the deep grain and highlighting, framing the flat grain offering contrast to the dominate flat grain color. Remember, most of the black pigments end up being wiped back off the flat grain during the staining process. Grain filling with contrasting color does the same thing, colors the grain. In my opinion, coloring wood with a single 1 color a dye, looks clean, but lacks pop. Black pigments is the icing on the cake. The poster also wants that mirror finish, and grain filling kills 2 birds with one stone. That's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 I thought about that, and went round and round with the idea, but the one thing that stood out to me is the 2nd pic after it's been planed. On the left side there is still remnants of black in the grain. Could be a matter of ageing, simply black grains, or left over from the finishing process. Still not sure.. But I do think what was suggested will work.. Maybe?? You can get the exact same type of finish for example on ash with black grain highlights by using only a cherry colored tint. To eliminate the black its just a matter of presealing. Darks are just lack of light. Pigments are non selective. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 oops forgot to add the picture. Neutral dye using lockwood wb with gf poly acrylic. Base mostly yellow, the more coats the darker the black will get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 QUOTE.............>oops forgot to add the picture. Neutral dye using lockwood wb with gf poly acrylic. Base mostly yellow, the more coats the darker the black will get. (couldn't get the quote thing to work) Interesting, what is the wood in the picture? Is lockwood a water-based dye, meaning water as the transfer agent? You say base is "mostly yellow" any other color used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 QUOTE.............>oops forgot to add the picture. Neutral dye using lockwood wb with gf poly acrylic. Base mostly yellow, the more coats the darker the black will get. (couldn't get the quote thing to work) Interesting, what is the wood in the picture? Is lockwood a water-based dye, meaning water as the transfer agent? You say base is "mostly yellow" any other color used? The wood is just ash closest thing I had to the OP's. Yes its just powder for water carrier. Lockwood has water or alchohol. The Dye is a custom neutral base made by a friend of mine that blends and patents recipes that he hopes to sell to cabinet makers when he finds a financial backer. You use the neutral base to even out things like poplar and birch. I'm nearly color blind cant mix colors from 12 to 3 on the the CW. FWIW if you look at the piece of edgebanding on my table that is also ash. The black is just from the natural colors in arm r seal, when freshly sanded there is no black at all. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 ...I'm nearly color blind cant mix colors.... Don I feel for ya on you being color blind. My Father-In-Law is too. Just wondering on the black thing. I use yellow dye all the time and don't get the results you do. My last Ash project was a turned bowl ( go to my gallery page) and no black grain there? Maybe that was due to using NGR dye? Sometimes tannin's in the oaks cause issue using water-based products which cause the black. Seldom but it happens. Not sure if Ash has tannin issues? This stuff can be crazy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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