Shop Lighting

[Chester]

Chester-best of luck tonight! That's no easy task no matter what the subject. Let us know how you make out.

I do enjoy listening to everyone talk about light. You have no idea how few people actually understand lighting or are able to articulate what they see.

Again I say--what ever makes you comfortable--go for it.

LH - My Lighting Presentation went very well. The Guild gave me a lot of good comments. The best one was "we don't need no stinkin' Home Depot guy!"

Here is the short version of my technical presentation from last night ... trying to answer the question, "Do I have enough light?"

Exercise based on my 384 sqft. shop with 89" ceiling height ...

One theory says that we need 100-foot candles of light at the work surface.

For me, that would work like this:

100 foot candles X 384 Sqft = 38,400 lumens (lumen value is listed on each tube package that you would buy)

Adding a 50% factor for distance of light to work surface would result in needed lumen output of 57,600 lumens.

My 6500K, 32-watt bulbs are rated at 2,850 lumens.

57,600 needed lumens divided by 2,850 per tube, equals 20.21 tubes needed.

I have 12-tubes currently, so I might look at adding another 4-8 tubes.

This is the high end of needed foot candles on a work surface. The low end theory is 75 foot candles ... and if you plug-in the values for 75 foot candles, it comes out that I need 15.15 tubes. For me that's another 3+ tubes.

Before you get upset with me for trying to tell you what you should have ... take a deep breath. That's not what I am trying to do. I just wanted to develop a mathematical analysis that I could look at when I ask myself, "do I have enough light?" My situation is certainly different than yours, especially with my total unpainted wood surround. I may very well ... need more light. But I am just going to live with it for a while. I still have way more light than I have ever had before.

One more step that I am going to take is to ask a friend over that is both an excellent woodworker and photographer. He has a meter that will actually read foot candles on surfaces. We will see what readings I get from that.

I will keep you posted.

Chester

[chopnhack]

Great post folks! I am in the midst of deciding if my shop warrants the (at least) 400 dollars it would take to go from two 2 bulb 4' t8's to a 3x3 grid set up on 2 banks for lighting control. Its a 400 sq ft garage with only the 16' garage opening facing the south for lighting, and only when open. Mostly white surfaces. I have two main question:

1. How much of a difference in perceived light output is there between a CRI of 85 and a CRI of say 90 or 95?

The price becomes significantly higher between the two.

2. Is the price difference worth spending for a T8HO vs. standard T8 (hbf vs nbf)?

Thanks for your input!

[Vic]

From and energy efficiency standpoint, no. As far as visual perception, if all other factors remain the same, yes you will perceive a better quality of light. Is it worth the upgrade? That is really too subjective for anyone but you to answer. If your current lighting is inadequate, I would just add to it. But, mix and matching will look horrible.

Great post folks! I am in the midst of deciding if my shop warrants the (at least) 400 dollars it would take to go from two 2 bulb 4' t8's to a 3x3 grid set up on 2 banks for lighting control. Its a 400 sq ft garage with only the 16' garage opening facing the south for lighting, and only when open. Mostly white surfaces. I have two main question:

1. How much of a difference in perceived light output is there between a CRI of 85 and a CRI of say 90 or 95?

The price becomes significantly higher between the two.

2. Is the price difference worth spending for a T8HO vs. standard T8 (hbf vs nbf)?

Thanks for your input!

[chopnhack]

Thanks Vic, but I am still in the mud on this one:

I will be repurposing the current two fixtures in the garage in other parts of the house. The garage will get all new lighting of one type of fixture. When you said you will receive a better quality of light, I assume you are referring to the CRI question. Does anyone know from experience how noticeable the difference is between CRI 85 and 95? I ask because I have read up on this stuff, but have no actual experience with it. Also, same question to the HBF versus NBF question, does it make a noticeable difference when each fixture will only have 2 lamps?

Thanks

From and energy efficiency standpoint, no. As far as visual perception, if all other factors remain the same, yes you will perceive a better quality of light. Is it worth the upgrade? That is really too subjective for anyone but you to answer. If your current lighting is inadequate, I would just add to it. But, mix and matching will look horrible.

[Vic]

Thanks Vic, but I am still in the mud on this one:

I will be repurposing the current two fixtures in the garage in other parts of the house. The garage will get all new lighting of one type of fixture. When you said you will receive a better quality of light, I assume you are referring to the CRI question. Does anyone know from experience how noticeable the difference is between CRI 85 and 95? I ask because I have read up on this stuff, but have no actual experience with it. Also, same question to the HBF versus NBF question, does it make a noticeable difference when each fixture will only have 2 lamps?

Thanks

CRI is a matter of how well a lamp renders color. So, as Lighthearted pointed out, you wont really notice the difference very much, because your brain will quickly adjust to a high or low CRI. I would definitely stay at 80 CRI or above, but I personally, don't buy the really high CRI, as I'd rather just hoard my incandescent bulbs. I would suggest going with a lamp like this. As far as the ballast. It depends on the lumen output you want. A low ballast factor is .77, a normal is .87, or so and a high ballast factor is 1.15, or so. For instance, on the F32T8XLSPX50HLEC you would get mean rated lumens of 2850 per lamp. If you use a GE332MAX-N/ULTRA, in a 3 lamp fixture you would have a lumen output of (2850x3).87) = 7438.5 per fixture. If you use a GE332MAX-H/ULTRA you would have (2850x3)1.15 = 9832.5 per fixture. I usually only use the high ballast factor when I am either in a high mounting (above 15 feet) situation or if I want to use a lower wattage (28W) T8 and push the lumens in a lower setting.

I hope that helps.

Also, even though I used GE product for illustration purposes, any reputable manufacturer's lamp/ballast combinations are fairly equitable.

[chopnhack]

Ok, thanks for clarifying. So if I understand correctly, the high ballast factor is really just a way of overdriving the bulb to gain more lumens?

[Vic]

Ok, thanks for clarifying. So if I understand correctly, the high ballast factor is really just a way of overdriving the bulb to gain more lumens?

Correct, it also has a small affect on the efficacy of lumens/watt.

[markhochstein]

Two years ago when I built my shop I put a lot of time and effort into planning the light. I got both my electrician and an architect friend involved. The architect is also a photo buff so he's kind of a light freak too. After years of working in a basement with terrible light I didn't want to screw up this important facet of my new shop. When it was all said and done I decided to go with four tube units that were two by two 48" tubes (i.e. each unit is ~96" long). I have 10' ceilings and my fixtures are placed 8' apart (two fixtures are a little closer over my bench area). I went with the 93 CRI T8 daylight bulbs from Full Spectrum Solutions. They're not cheap, but I am VERY satisfied with the results. Every single person who comes into my shop comments on how nice the light is, which continually amazes because I, honestly, didn't think most people would notice "the light". I liked these bulbs so much that I used them again when I finished our basement. I installed some fluorescent fixtures in some indirect lighting trays to augment the natural light that is available. Most people never even notice them because they blend in so well with the natural light. I can't say enough good things about these bulbs. If they last anywhere close to their 34,000 "rated" lifespan then they should burn out at about the same time I do.

One important thing to consider is the "Full Spectrum" part. Lighting temperatures are stated in degrees Kelvin as you know, but that numer is only the average of all the light temperatures coming out of the tube (or bulb). If you were to graph the amount of light across the spectrum with most "daylight" bulbs you would see virtually nothing and then a big spike where the specific degree rating of the light was (eg. 5500k). With a "Full Spectrum" bulb you will see much more of a nice wide bell curve with the average occurring at the advertised temp. All that extra light across the frequency ranges make a big difference.

When it comes to finishing, I'm never surprised by what a piece looks like indoors unless that room just has no natural light at all. Then it will look warmer as I would expect with generally warmer "soft white" light.

[Vic]

Very nice space, Mark!

[markhochstein]

Thanks Vic!

[nateswoodworks]

I had a couple lights that were flickering and my wife had to make a run to town so I put them on the list. She brought home 4 bulbs that are all 32watt and 4100k, the problem is they are a pinkish color and really annoying, adding insult to injury my son also says I have girl bulbs! I looked at the ones I was replacing and some of the others in my shop and they all look the same, same endcaps and markings on them, but only the new ones are pink. I tried putting them in a different light fixture and of course still pink. They are packaged as warm inviting color, from now on as long as I stay with "cool white" will I be ok? Thanks for the help and all the knowledge that hasbeen shared!

Nate

[Chester]

Thanks Vic!

[Chester]

Loogie

The only thing missing in that picture is Norm!

You could do surgery in there. Great job. What's upstairs?

[lighthearted]

Loogie- Great space and I think I would be quite comfortable working in your shop. Your homework has really paid off. The full spectrum is really the way to go.

Just as an FYI I did some Meter reading in my shop this weekend. My results are much different than most shops I suspect--But I am quite happy!

With all 40-60watt Incandescent lamps my color is a warm 2480°K

Overall I have 25-35 Footcandles. Over my bench: my dimmable fixture can give me as much as 70 fc on the surface or as much as 280 fc-- mind you that is over a few feet as my basement ceilings are low!

An interesting note--the task lights at my drill press, grinder and band saw are all lamped with the recommended 40w lamps and they meter at 65 fc.

BTW I rent out my meters!

But the best meter of all is your eye!

[Chester]

I had a couple lights that were flickering and my wife had to make a run to town so I put them on the list. She brought home 4 bulbs that are all 32watt and 4100k, the problem is they are a pinkish color and really annoying, adding insult to injury my son also says I have girl bulbs! I looked at the ones I was replacing and some of the others in my shop and they all look the same, same endcaps and markings on them, but only the new ones are pink. I tried putting them in a different light fixture and of course still pink. They are packaged as warm inviting color, from now on as long as I stay with "cool white" will I be ok? Thanks for the help and all the knowledge that hasbeen shared!

Nate

Nate -

I went to HD last week before my lighting presentation, just to review. On the packages, I saw all kinds of descriptors of brightness and color (like cool white, warm, daylight, etc.). Maybe I am wrong but in the end, that seemed like marketing hype. I am going to go by the numbers. Low Kelvin numbers will apparently look yellow-red, middle numbers will yield pinky-green and high numbers will look bluish-white. The only descriptors that I would look at are the words "full spectrum." As stated above, full spectrum should yield a better of balance of color with the peak of its color based on the rated Kelvin number.

Chester

[Vic]

I had a couple lights that were flickering and my wife had to make a run to town so I put them on the list. She brought home 4 bulbs that are all 32watt and 4100k, the problem is they are a pinkish color and really annoying, adding insult to injury my son also says I have girl bulbs! I looked at the ones I was replacing and some of the others in my shop and they all look the same, same endcaps and markings on them, but only the new ones are pink. I tried putting them in a different light fixture and of course still pink. They are packaged as warm inviting color, from now on as long as I stay with "cool white" will I be ok? Thanks for the help and all the knowledge that hasbeen shared!

Nate

Sorry Nate, I saw Loogie's shop and didn't catch your post. One of the contractors I deal with had a whole batch of pinkish 4100s a year or so ago. She replaced a lot of lamps for free. Its a defect. Take them back and get another brand for now.

[Chester]

Loogie- Great space and I think I would be quite comfortable working in your shop. Your homework has really paid off. The full spectrum is really the way to go.

Just as an FYI I did some Meter reading in my shop this weekend. My results are much different than most shops I suspect--But I am quite happy!

With all 40-60watt Incandescent lamps my color is a warm 2480°K

Overall I have 25-35 Footcandles. Over my bench: my dimmable fixture can give me as much as 70 fc on the surface or as much as 280 fc-- mind you that is over a few feet as my basement ceilings are low!

An interesting note--the task lights at my drill press, grinder and band saw are all lamped with the recommended 40w lamps and they meter at 65 fc.

BTW I rent out my meters!

But the best meter of all is your eye!

LH -

I think that you make a very good point about "over your work surfaces" ...

75-FC are not needed for walking around my shop. I really ONLY need that kind of light at my stationary tools and on my benches. If I had 75-100 FC throughout the shop, I would need to wear sunglasses.

Chester

[chopnhack]

Wow, Mark....droool.... can anyone say Dream shop? Kudos to you sir. Thanks for the info on the bulbs, I was cringing at their price tag and was wondering if they really made any difference at all, thanks again! :D

P.S. - do the full spectrum still come with a kelvin # associated and if so, what number did you find to be the best?

[markhochstein]

Loogie

The only thing missing in that picture is Norm!

You could do surgery in there. Great job. What's upstairs?

Upsairs is my kiln - well, not really, it's just a big open attic but I do use it for drying lumber and it certainly gets hot enough during the summer qualify as a kiln.

[markhochstein]

Wow, Mark....droool.... can anyone say Dream shop? Kudos to you sir. Thanks for the info on the bulbs, I was cringing at their price tag and was wondering if they really made any difference at all, thanks again! :D

P.S. - do the full spectrum still come with a kelvin # associated and if so, what number did you find to be the best?

Thanks Chop! and yes, it is my Dream Shop, but I still wish it was bigger (for a dedicated finishing room) but I know that's just being greedy. I love going out there to work.

As for the bulbs, yes, each of the bulbs do have a Kelvin temp associated with them. I went with the highest CRI (93) for accurate color representation. The bulbs I ended up with are 5500k. I cannot attest to them being "the best" because I haven't done a comparison with other similar bulbs. I just know that I am happy with them.

I have done a couple of very informal tests though. My tractor garage below my shop has the same strip lights in it but I just used T8 "Daylight" 5500k bulbs from HD in there. One day when I was cleaning up I found my box of spare bulbs so I decided to swap out one of the bulbs in my shop. The HD bulb looked kind of greenish blue in comparison to the full spectrum bulb - or you could say that the full spectrum bulbs looked kind of pinkish-orangish compared to the HD bulb depending on your frame of reference. Both are 5500k bulbs but they look nothing alike when lit. When I'm working down in the tractor garage the light "feels" very industrial and cool compared to the light in my shop. If I walk into my shop on an overcast day and turen on the lights it just feels like it got brighter but not at all harsh. That's probably more info than you wanted, but I hope it helps.

[chopnhack]

Very cool, the more info the merrier! What brand and if you recall, where did you get them from? I have seen some online and they are running anywhere from $8-20 :o

[Vic]

Thanks Chop! and yes, it is my Dream Shop, but I still wish it was bigger (for a dedicated finishing room) but I know that's just being greedy. I love going out there to work.

As for the bulbs, yes, each of the bulbs do have a Kelvin temp associated with them. I went with the highest CRI (93) for accurate color representation. The bulbs I ended up with are 5500k. I cannot attest to them being "the best" because I haven't done a comparison with other similar bulbs. I just know that I am happy with them.

I have done a couple of very informal tests though. My tractor garage below my shop has the same strip lights in it but I just used T8 "Daylight" 5500k bulbs from HD in there. One day when I was cleaning up I found my box of spare bulbs so I decided to swap out one of the bulbs in my shop. The HD bulb looked kind of greenish blue in comparison to the full spectrum bulb - or you could say that the full spectrum bulbs looked kind of pinkish-orangish compared to the HD bulb depending on your frame of reference. Both are 5500k bulbs but they look nothing alike when lit. When I'm working down in the tractor garage the light "feels" very industrial and cool compared to the light in my shop. If I walk into my shop on an overcast day and turen on the lights it just feels like it got brighter but not at all harsh. That's probably more info than you wanted, but I hope it helps.

I'd like to know the brand, too. When I lit my shop, I was just beginning to learn lighting. Now, I've been doing it for about four years and know I definitely want to jump to 5000k just for the visual acuity associated with a high K lamp (whiter light constricts the pupil, etc.) but your's does seem to have a warmer tone than you usually find in high K lamps. I'm a constant student of all thing in life. So, teach me ;o)

[markhochstein]

Very cool, the more info the merrier! What brand and if you recall, where did you get them from? I have seen some online and they are running anywhere from $8-20 :o

These are the exact bulbs I ordered. http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/t8_lamps_545_prd1.htm

If you click where it says Fluorescent Tubes it will take you back one page so you can see all the bulbs and find some information about the different lines they have available.

[chopnhack]

Cool, I happened on that site and found so far they were the cheapest for that type of bulb. Thanks again

These are the exact bulbs I ordered. http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/t8_lamps_545_prd1.htm

If you click where it says Fluorescent Tubes it will take you back one page so you can see all the bulbs and find some information about the different lines they have available.

[Guest Mahoganus]

You guys are so technical about this, amazing. I just add lights when I notice that is too dark. As a matter of fact I have to add a couple more sets of double fluorescent lights.

Im with Bobby on this one, but I am curious to what all you light tech guys think about using 400watt Metal Halides. Thats what I have in my garage and was going to install them in my new garage. Working most of my life in a machine shop that is what I got use to. Im just wondering if thats good or bad.