Thinking in BF, getting the right amount of lumber at the yard

[landslide]

Novice woodworker here, taking on the Roubo as a very ambitious project.

I'm looking at the cut list, and I'm realizing I'm not used to thinking in terms of board feet. I understand why this measurement is useful for thinking about total stock used and its cost. But I'm having a hard time setting up an order in terms of, for example, 2x6" or 2x10" boards of 8' in length. My local suppliers here want me to give them numbers in terms of 2-by-whatever-by-length.

The "Top - Rear Half" of the Roubo, for example, has these dimensions: 11-1/16" wide, 87" long, 4" thick.

In my mind, the conversion here for when I place the order at the yard is: get six 2x6" boards of 8' in length, and then mill them down to size.

When I was looking at the videos for the Roubo, Marc says that he got boards between 5-6" in width and 10" in width. But none of the local yards I called up carry 5" boards. They sort of have stacks of 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, etc.

Is that how people bought their wood? By converting from the cut list to 2-bys of different lengths?

Sorry if my question seems really naive

etienne

[rmac]

Sounds like you're going to places that sell construction lumber, which is typically softwood and is already milled to standard sizes (2x4, 2x6, 2x8, etc.) like you're seeing. That way it's all ready to be nailed together to make a house. Hardwood, on the other hand, is more often sold in random widths that depend on how big the original log was. That explains the varying (and seemingly odd) widths of the boards that Marc happened to pick up. Also, depending on how you buy it, hardwood may or may not be planed, and the edges of the boards may or may not be milled straight when you get them.

If you wanted to, you could make your workbench out of construction lumber, and if you did, you would be on the right track to figure out how many standard sized boards you would need for each part of the bench, and then how to mill and glue them back together to get the parts you need. I'm guessing that most of the builders are making their benches from hardwood, however, and that's why they're talking in terms of board feet and random widths, rather than saying stuff like "you need X 2x6s and Y 2x8s to make the legs and the stretchers."

So what kind of wood are you planning for your bench? Am I correct in guessing that you have been talking to people who sell construction lumber?

-- Russ

[landslide]

hi Russ --

I'm planning on using either soft maple or southern yellow pine. I live in Southern Indiana, and you can get SYP here, but I haven't found it to be super cheap. I don't and never planned to use construction lumber. It is true that the Lowe's or Menard's around here mostly sell softwood, although Menard's has what I think is legit SYP. All of their hardwood is pre-milled. So I don't want any of that. So what I've done is call places that identify themselves as lumber mills:

http://tinyurl.com/8y76oze

I've been to a few of these lumber mills in person. A lot of them produce flooring, moldings, etc. Most of them also don't really do retail. They're not store fronts. And I don't think they really sell construction lumber. They take large orders for wood and mill to order. But even for those people, they wanted 2-by measurements.

In short, I haven't found any lumber mills where you just show up and choose your hardwood from a yard. The places I've called don't carry, for instance, any soft maple in stock (although they do carry hard maple).

etienne

[rmac]

Okay, so it sounds like maybe you just haven't found the right place to shop yet. Maybe somebody else from southern Indiana will chime in with some help, or you might try this website to locate a local hardwood dealer:

http://www.woodfinder.com/

Good luck!

-- Russ

[landslide]

Agreed, I may not have found the right place yet. But at least I feel a little more confident about how to find it. Thanks, Russ!

[Imaginos]

Well, maybe you have already found the right place. All of the SYP for my Roubo came from the construction lumber racks at Lowes. Chris Schwarz in his book reccomends SYP, or Douglas Fir, or all manners of other construction grade lumbers, and if you hunt around the web you'll see examples of mutt benches made from shorts and scrap. The benefit of a Roubo is in the design, not an inherent property of the wood itself. Not sayin' there aren't preferred woods, but if you're like me and this is the first thing you've built beyond a pair of hanging shelves and odd little trinkents here and there, I'd say you don't need stress it too much.

I got 2"x10", 2"x12" in 8' (or longer) lengths, whichever ones had clearest, straightest gain. There was litterally no methodology to this other than to spend an hour on saturday morning sliding boards around the racks until I found ones that seemed ok. Further, I bought only two or three bords at a time, however many I thought I could move in my car, and that gave a chance for the stock to be refreshed between visits. 2"x10" were most efficient for the slabs since a 2"x8" wouldn't yeild two 4" boards after jointing and the kerf is removed, and 2"x12" have the same problem for 3 boards, but those sizes were quite useful for other parts such as the legs, rails, chop, so on. This was litterally less than $120 of wood. My individuial board dimensions were usually quite different than what the plans lay out, however, with sufficient lamination and some thinking it wasn't too difficult build up the correct sizes in the final piece. There was a lot of ripping and milling and in the long run I had 8 or 9 boards in each slab, I think Marc had 6 or 7, or whatever it was I generally needed more boards because my stock was under 1.5" after milling and the plans are made for just less than 2". Another example is that instead of two boards to make the legs, I used three.

The thing to beware of with SYP was the proclivity for wood movement. I litterally one board watched it warp over a few seconds after ripping. It seems best if you can get the glue and laminations done within a few hours after milling, or get them doweled for alignment and clamped up in a dry fit if they need to sit for a few days (frequent occurance for me). I think the only parts on my bench that aren't laminations are the deadman and the ledger strips--everything else has at least one glue seam to help keep it straight.

Not sure if this helps, but I wouldn't go out on a ledge over species if this is your first serious project. Aside from having a Roubo at the end, the real pay-off was the experience. In ten years time I might rebuild it out of maple/ash/hickory or some such...but I still have an awesome bench to work on right now.

[landslide]

You could be right, Imaginos. I was at Menard's the other day and picked up some very nice 2x12x10' boards for pretty cheap. Something like $70. And I think SYP is just fine. I read Schwarz's Workbenches book before finding the guild, and the Roubo bench, and was already planning on using SYP. That said, I've been making a few more calls around here and it looks like some yards are more along the lines of where people like Marc go: just a bunch of lumber around organized by 4/4, 8/4, etc.

That said, since this is the first major project, keeping the lumber on the cheaper side will help.. in case I make a mistake I can't fix without starting over.

[RenaissanceWW]

Whether you learn to think in terms of board footage or not eventually it comes down to "cant I get the parts I need from this board" When buying in smaller quantities (lets face it as hobby woodworkers and even professional furniture makers our orders are small) you can't necessarily rely on the board foot number to fit your needs. Generally I calculate board footage so I have an idea of what my bill will be before heading out to the yard, but once there I'm looking at each board and mapping out which parts will come from which board. I usually have a plan A and plan B in my head with a piece count per thickness, width, and legnth. I wrote a blog post about this a few months ago here that might clear some of this up, http://www.hardwoodtogo.net/tips-for-buying-lumber-for-your-next-project/

The place you are calling sound like milwork houses. They are going to carry the species that is popular for flooring and mouldings. Hard Maple is a flooring staple not soft Maple which is why you can't find it. Secondly they are buying their lumber in terms of a grade. Grades dictate sizes of the boards (I talk about this in that above mentioned blog post) so they will have pieces in the rough in pretty standard sizes. 6/8, 6/8 is a common term meaning a mixture of 6-8" widths and 6-8' lengths. For a millwork house though it will be commong to see 6/8, 10/12 or 14/16 since longer runs is what the market is looking for. They are quoting you 2x4, 1x4, etc which is a dimensional size once the piece has been milled. If that is the case then ask for a linear foot price and it might make things easier for both of you. Regardless you will be paying more because they have to factor in the labor for the actual millwork. Finally with your smaller order size you will be paying a higher overhead since it is a lot more work to pull 100 board feet, set up, and run than 1000 board feet.

The place you have found may well work out but don't expect a lot in customer service. Unfortunately, we woodworkers are a very small market segment and the mills make very little money on us. The positive note is that they are buying their wood in bulk from a distributor and they are probably getting very high quality material. Flooring and moulding products don't tolerate knots or other defects so the lumber they buy will be very very clear. Woodworkers don't often get to see this kind of material because by the time it gets to our lumber racks it hase been picked over by larger manufacturers.

[landslide]

hi RenaissanceWW,

that was a very useful post - thanks. I read your blog entry, too. I think you're right. I've been calling millwork places. As it turns out, though, I found a guy on CL who is selling maple at very good prices. Basically, he's selling 8' or 10' boards of varying widths, although most are around 6" he said. So that suits me just fine. He has 8/4 and 4/4. So what I did is I drew a bunch of boards on pieces of paper and mapped out each part of the bench onto a specific board. I did that for both 10' and 8' boards, and now I have a pretty clear idea of what to get if good 10' or 8' boards are available (plan A and plan B!).

Thanks

[rmac]

So what I did is I drew a bunch of boards on pieces of paper and mapped out each part of the bench onto a specific board. I did that for both 10' and 8' boards, and now I have a pretty clear idea of what to get if good 10' or 8' boards are available (plan A and plan B!).

Now you're talking! This is great. You may wind up doing this same exercise one more time (at least) when you actually get the boards home where you can determine exactly how wide they are, whether they have defects that you need to work around, how much wood you're going to lose to milling, and so on. But that's a normal part of the process.

Some people enjoy this preliminary work and others don't. As far as I can tell, though, the only alternative to careful planning is to accept that you're going to use more material than necessary, buy extra to accommodate the waste, and then turn pens out of all the little scraps you'll end up with.

-- Russ

[RenaissanceWW]

So glad I could help Etienne. There still seems to be a lot of mystery in the lumber industry and I'm trying to dispel as much as I can. Not to drop another post on you, but I did a little video on this board planning process using SketchUp that has become pretty standard for me before each trip to the lumber yard. http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/planning-your-project-saw-cuts/

[landslide]

hi again RWW,

that post, too, was informative. Thanks. I have to admit -- I'm pretty intimidated by Sketchup. I've followed the tutorial videos several times... and still can't seem to get very far with it. But I guess I'll keep hacking away at it until something sticks

etienne