Dining room chair blues

[BillN]

I am about to enter uncharted territory for me - dining room chairs as a gift. This is what I bring to table besides rookie enthusiasm: 1) a good model - my own chairs that I bought years ago; 2) I've read quite a bit about making chairs; 3) I've watched some videos; 4)I bought a set of plans that are similar to my model.

I intend to make a prototype out of poplar or dimensional lumber first. Aside from the curved rear legs that I think I may be able to handle, the problem, as you might imagine, are those #$@% angles. The rear legs cant inward at about 4 degrees to allow the back to splay out. The rails running from front to back angle both out (to allow for the seat to be wider at the front) and also slightly downward running to the back. To eliminate some pain I am not having to scoop out seats - they will be upholstered. I have a Domino machine, but the top fence is all but useless in this situation because there won't be much material for it to rest on in the case of the front or rear leg and it appears that the front to back rails may require a compound angle. Using the table saw and one of those magnetic angle finders I made some wedges at several different slight angles (4, 6 and 9 degrees). I then clamped a piece of scrap to my table using the wedges to tilt the scrap and then plunged the Domino in using the table as a flat reference point. This did indeed get me a slightly angled mortise and I think I can probably make accurate repetitive mortises this way. However, I'm not sure I can cut a mortise that is angled in two directions using this method. Any ideas? Maybe I can angle the Domino in by clamping two rails to my table for the domino to reference from in the same manner one uses rails at an angle to make molding on the tablesaw. Has anyone tried this approach?

I am also looking into something like a Super FMT jig since it apparently is built to do compound angles for chairs. By the time the sawdust settles on the acquisiton for the jig and related accessories I can say goodbye to $600 or more. (However, nice looking chairs can easily run $200-$300 each so maybe this is one of those "but honey I'm actually SAVING money!" - I know, pretty lame.) Is the Super FMT or something similar the answer? Does anyone have experience with chairs? I have seen some nice home brew M&T jigs for the router, but I don't recall that they had the compound angle capacity. I remember seeing someone using wedges and and a vise as part of an M&T home brew to get the angles, but I don't think I'm up to that level.

[iSawitFirst]

Wow! Chairs as a gift.

I've tried to cut compound M&T using a shop made jig and ended up with marginally acceptable joints. The repeatability of the jig was pretty bad.

Before I try this type of joinery again I'll get a Super FMT jig.

[reforzar]

Hello,

I just glanced at your posting and thought I'd give you my two cents.

Go to your local library and check out a video or book. I think that may help.

That's what I like to do to learn more, not that I'm discounting the internet but video and books are spectacular.

Brian

[Rutabagared]

Bill,

Try posting your question on the FOG (Festool Owners Group). There is an active member there who is a chair maker, and I believe he uses the Domino extensively. I sent you a pm with his user name.

Joe

[PaulMarcel]

Besides Joe's idea, you should read the unofficial Domino manual by Rick Christopherson. It's like he original Domino manual with a lot of use cases in the back including some compound angles IIRC.

[BillN]

Wow! Chairs as a gift.

I've tried to cut compound M&T using a shop made jig and ended up with marginally acceptable joints. The repeatability of the jig was pretty bad.

Before I try this type of joinery again I'll get a Super FMT jig.

My problem is that I already have quite a bit of furniture (mostly purchased) so now I have to have some excuse to make something. I guess I'll fill up my daughter & son-in-law's house.

[BillN]

Hello,

I just glanced at your posting and thought I'd give you my two cents.

Go to your local library and check out a video or book. I think that may help.

That's what I like to do to learn more, not that I'm discounting the internet but video and books are spectacular.

Brian

Thanks. I'll try that. I have a book on chair making but it's almost like the two philosphers in the woods with one can of beans and no can opener. They look at each other and one says to the other "assume a can opener." Here it's "make a compound motise & tenon joint with so many degrees this way yadayadayada." Not a whole lot of help.

[BillN]

Bill,

Try posting your question on the FOG (Festool Owners Group). There is an active member there who is a chair maker, and I believe he uses the Domino extensively. I sent you a pm with his user name.

Joe

Already did that. I'll head there next.

[BillN]

Besides Joe's idea, you should read the unofficial Domino manual by Rick Christopherson. It's like he original Domino manual with a lot of use cases in the back including some compound angles IIRC.

Paul,

I read Rick's manual when I got the domino. I guess I forgot that he had stuff on compound angles. Doh! I'll reread it.

Bill

[Guest Trace]

There is a really good discussion and a set of tables for making compound angle cuts in the Craftsman Radial Arm Saw manual with a little bit of study they become very easy to make on a table saw also, just upside down. They are also in one of the books in the rats nest of my office. I will see if I can find that piece and get it posted.

[BillN]

There is a really good discussion and a set of tables for making compound angle cuts in the Craftsman Radial Arm Saw manual with a little bit of study they become very easy to make on a table saw also, just upside down. They are also in one of the books in the rats nest of my office. I will see if I can find that piece and get it posted.

That might be helpful. Since I have the Domino my main concern is how to cut a compound angled mortise with it. I sort of have it worked out in my head, but I have to try it for real. Of course the workpieces will also have compound angled cuts to meet properly, so any help there is appreciated. I'll see if I can hunt up the Craftsman Radial manual. Thanks.

Bill

[Bombarde16]

I am about to enter uncharted territory

The fact that this has sent you into a spiral of tooling concerns is what bugs me most. OK, if you're dead set on perfecting your skill at creating compound angled mortise & tenon joints, that's may be a noble goal in its own right. But it's not the only way to create a chair.

Clear the deck for a minute and approach this as a design question rather than a joinery question. Starting with nothing more than the fact that these chairs must support the diners' buttocks at a prescribed height, where does your mind go? It's entirely possible that you can create a beautiful design that doesn't involve the nightmare of angles you have described. David Marks did a stunning chair (Wood Works season 5) with a bent lamination for the back that's held together with screws and half laps. Then there's Nakashima's iconic Conoid Chair that uses bridle joints.

Excepting a spiral staircase, I can't think of anything harder than a set of dining chairs. I'd let the mind wander in the design phase for a long time on this one, both to come up with something that fits within what skills and tools I have right now and in the hope of coming up with something genuinely wonderful.