estesbubba Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 I was a Waterlox user for about 10 years and loved the look and ease of use. What I didn't like were the slow dry times, dust nibs, and odor in the house for up to 30 days. Since I got a Fuji MM4 and started spraying waterbornes I love the quick dry times, recoat in hours, and glass smooth finish with no dust nibs (OK, maybe a couple). One downside is the clear finish leaves walnut and cherry cold looking. So I decided to try some test boards and experiment using these finishes. I sanded to 220 and probably wasn't as thorough as I should have been, but they're test boards. I thinned the oil-based poly 50% with mineral spirits and wiped on to saturate the wood. Since my goal here was only to warm up the wood I wiped completely off after 5 minutes. I could have used BLO but figured poly would dry and cure quicker. After 24 hours (I would have waited longer on real project) I wiped the boards with 50/50 mixture of H20/DNA to remove any oils on the surface. I sprayed on a coat of water-based sanding sealer. I chose to use sanding sealer to test if it would be a good barrier coat between oil-based stains and water-based poly. I could have also used shellac or went straight to the water-based poly but wanted to try this product out. The sanding sealer didn't raised the grain much at all with the oil-based poly under it and sanded great. I vacuumed the dust and applied 3 coats of water-based poly at 2 hour intervals. Here it is 3 minutes after spraying. And 4 minutes later (7 minutes after spraying) it is drying like crazy. For some reason the Old Masters poly always looks like 100's of tiny dust nibs everywhere, but once it dries they disappear. Here it is one hour after spraying it is dry to the touch and a smooth finish (minus the sawdust from the outfeed table in the pic). It takes a couple of days for the finish to completely level out and it's glass smooth then. I think the finish test did a good job to warm up the walnut and cherry. The cherry went straight from milling to finish so it will benefit from aging and light. I'm really becoming a fan of the Old Master's products. A quart of the water-based poly is only $16 locally, it sprays just as nicely as General Finishes High Performance, plus has 29% solids vs only 19% solids for GF HP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Looks pretty good. My last walnut project, I used GF High Performance (hand applied) over BLO. The color and warmth are good, but it still doesn't have the depth and chatoyance of oil based poly. Next time I am going to try amber shellac topcoated with waterbase. I've used old master stains, they are good. I will give the topcoats a try next time. Around here they are stocked by Benjamin Moore dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 If you want to compare the solids. General Finishes Clear Poly has 27-29% solids. Not sure if it's sold in quarts to compare price. I contacted Old Masters last year. Had a difficult time with them sending me stuff. The local dealer had a 5gal minimum to order. So I contacted Old Masters directly. They said they couldn't ship because the weather was to cold. So after a few more emails not being responded too, I gave up. -Ace- General Finishes Seal-A-Cell is what I use under the WB topcoats to give "POP" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Mike - I think shellac will give a little more pop. I might try another run substituting the sanding sealer with dewaxed shellac. ACE - $27 plus shipping on the GF Clear Poly from Homestead. Looks like Old Masters is sold all over Detroit. In my experience, the OM poly and GF HP spray equally well with the same settings. The convenience of getting OM locally is the biggest plus for me but $10 less quart is also nice. And like you found out, you don't want waterbornes sitting on your porch frozen. http://www.myoldmasters.com/store-locations.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 The problem was the water-based products. He had oil-based. Old master made our local dealer have a minmum 5 gal order. He said he would not order 5 gal and sell me 1 gal having the remainder sitting on the shelf. He then said he had other water-based products he could sell me in gallons. That was the same story with the other local dealer near the house. -Ace- Walmart sells old masters. Don't see the Water-based topcoats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Oops...Walmart sells a gallon of the Old Masters water-based topcoat for about $98.00 bucks -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 I bet that gallon is old Old Masters at that price! $46 gallon at the paint store where I buy from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 http://www.walmart.com/ip/Old-Masters-75501-1-Gallon-Satin-Water-Based-Polyurethane-Pack-of-2/30671263 Hey my bad....98.00 for 2 gallons plus 10.00 for shipping. If Walmart is selling Old Masters Finishes....it must be a quality product. Hahahahaha......... All good, must be like a Minwax? -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Definitely a nice consistent finish. A little plasticky on the walnut for my taste but the cherry looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 If you want to bash a product without trying it no biggie. You're obviously GF only person and they have great products. At least I've used both products to compare them. I have a garage full of test boards over 10 years so I know a little more than PolyShades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 If you want to bash a product without trying it no biggie. You're obviously GF only person and they have great products. At least I've used both products to compare them. I have a garage full of test boards over 10 years so I know a little more than PolyShades. Whoa...pump the brake pedal....you were comparing a finish that had less solids. -Ace- I agree, the finish looks a little plastic as Eric noticed. Obviously your an Old Masters person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 simmer down boys. its friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Definitely a nice consistent finish. A little plasticky on the walnut for my taste but the cherry looks good. Yeah, but that is the nature of WB finishes. GF high performance looks about the same on walnut over BLO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I would put min wax WB on anything that I would consider as a GF performance candidate. If you know what your doing they both spray equally as well and one is as durable as the other. We used 5 gallons of poly acrylic to setup and train with our Q one and it did just fine. Glass smooth no sanding needed what so ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Definitely a nice consistent finish. A little plasticky on the walnut for my taste but the cherry looks good. That crappy phone pic was taken an hour after spraying so not what it will like in a couple of days. I personally haven't seen any of the waterborne polys look like plastic once dry. Now gloss oil-based - that's another story! Another crappy phone pic of boards and other than subtle sheen differences, they look pretty much the same in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Some results may vary. This is General Finishes High Performance 3 coats of "satin" One comment I have, you posted you didn't get much grain raising after spraying the sanding sealer over the oil. If I understand correctly, you wiped the surface with 50/50 water to denatured alcohol. That's what we do to raise the grain before water-based stains. Water is water and will raise the grain. We put denatured alcohol in the water not as a cleaner but to make the water evaporate faster off the wood so we can get on with the staining. So more than likely you "pre-raised the grain" before the sanding sealer. -Ace- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Some results may vary. This is General Finishes High Performance 3 coats of "satin" One comment I have, you posted you didn't get much grain raising after spraying the sanding sealer over the oil. If I understand correctly, you wiped the surface with 50/50 water to denatured alcohol. That's what we do to raise the grain before water-based stains. Water is water and will raise the grain. We put denatured alcohol in the water not as a cleaner but to make the water evaporate faster off the wood so we can get on with the staining. So more than likely you "pre-raised the grain" before the sanding sealer. -Ace- He pre sealed with oil based poly thus why no grain raising. The dna solution was only a cleaning solution. One thing no one is accounting for is final film thickness. Only finishing for appearance is fine if its a museum piece. Most of these Wb finishes need more coats especially if sanding is done on the finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I finish for my home museum. A thick film finish ruins a piece for me. I'd rather it get a little beat up than start off ugly from the get-go. If I wanted plastic furniture I'd stop building with wood. But that's me. That piece looks great, Ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I finish for my home museum. A thick film finish ruins a piece for me. I'd rather it get a little beat up than start off ugly from the get-go. If I wanted plastic furniture I'd stop building with wood. But that's me. That piece looks great, Ace. You can't see the difference between a 1 mil and 3 mil finish with your eyes. 1 and 5 yes but defiantly not 1 and 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Well I can't say I've ever had what I've known to be a 1 mil and 3 mil finish side-by-side for comparison...all I know is that open-pored woods start looking really stupid really fast under any kind of film...especially with a finish any glossier than satin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 You have you just don't know it. Hell probably even on the same piece if your brush in finishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 He pre sealed with oil based poly thus why no grain raising. The dna solution was only a cleaning solution. One thing no one is accounting for is final film thickness. Only finishing for appearance is fine if its a museum piece. Most of these Wb finishes need more coats especially if sanding is done on the finish. Agree, the thin mixture of 50/50 mineral spirits and oil finish will seal the wood SOME, not entirely. You will get SOME (not bad) grain raising with the 50/50 water and denatured alcohol over the oil and mineral spirits. The comment in this post, if you read what he was saying..."The sanding sealer didn't raised the grain much at all with the oil-based poly under it and sanded great." -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 You have you just don't know it. Hell probably even on the same piece if your brush in finishes. I don't brush, I wipe. That makes it sound like I have dirty teeth and a clean ass. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I don't brush, I wipe. That makes it sound like I have dirty teeth and a clean ass. Brushing is the best way. You can get in the crack and creases. Best to brush up and down dipping the brush in the water as you work. Another tip is keeping a wet edge ya don't want to dry brush. When not in use, we keep our brush on the floor next to the potty. -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Yup the 50/50 H2O/DNA mixture is to remove any surface oil and the wiping varnish does seal the wood some. I just checked the boards this morning and very happy how they turned out. The surface has leveled out nicely, the sheen mellowed out, and it doesn't look plasticky IMO. Oh, and the surface is just (Tommy Mac voice on) awesome to run your hand across. You'll never quite get the 100% oil look with waterborne topcoats but I think these warmed up nicely and look pretty darn good. I think the sanding sealer might be a good substitute for shellac. I like shellac but there is a little more cleaning involved when spraying. I mainly use shellac as a barrier coat to lift the topcoats off the surface to give more depth and the sanding sealer seemed to do that. Here is a video of the cherry in sunlight: https://plus.google.com/photos/yourphotos?pid=6123512769432329362&oid=117092316076175299488 ACE - do you spray your GF water-based stains? If so what tip do you use and how fast until you wipe it off? I found that you have to be quick with this product as it dries super fast. That piece looks great and no plastic look there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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