redoing another shower

[Tom King]

Did the base pour this morning.  We'll call the surface finish good enough, but the slope I feel like is perfect.  It was more of a one armed paper hanger type job by myself, but I got it done.  There is always the need for more tools.  I have screeds six inches in difference of lengths, but 3 inches would be a lot better.  Before I do the bigger floor in the little bathroom house on the point I'm going to get some more screeds and cut them down to have 3" differences up to 4 feet.

If I'd had some help to keep the screeds clean I could have smoothed out the surface more, but I wanted to get it down in one piece before any of it started to set up.  If it had started to set up in the bucket before I finished it would have been a disaster.

This is the hardest step, and I'm glad it's done.  Laying the tile will be easy in comparison.

Next step backer board on the walls.  

 

[Tom King]

The backer board was put up this morning.  If nothing else comes up, the plan is to start laying the floor tile tomorrow.

 

[Coop]

Tom, when the tile guys did our new bathroom, they used a semi dry mixture to form the slope and it hardened like concrete. I’ve seen it done in commercial kitchens as well. Are you familiar with the process? 

[Tom King]

I know that process, but have never seen anyone do it.  No one stocks that around here even though it's listed on the Home Depot website.  I'm used to working with wet mortar and concrete.  I liked this bedding compound that I used this time and will use it from now on for such jobs as this.

When I built new houses, the floor of showers was done with a monolithic thick pour of regular concrete.  Not one of those has ever cracked that I know of.  The one in our house has its own foundation even, but this house that we live in is the only house I've ever built over a crawlspace.  This rental house is the first time I've worked on a house on a slab.  If it was a house we'd live in, I probably would have cut the whole floor out and poured it in one piece out of concrete.

I really decided to try this here because I need to do something similar in that little brick bathroom house on the point that I've been putting off getting into.  I like this system good enough for it down there too. At least on that one I'm not cutting the slab up, nor was it already broken like this one, so the bedding compound will all be on top of strong as steel concrete.

edited to add:  I looked it up.  The dry bed method just uses cement and sand.  This bedding compound has lime in it too, and is supposedly stronger.  The mixing of the dry worries me because it has to be just right.  I think for guys that work with it all the time it's probably easier since it's less messy, and quicker.  Since I don't do it every day but am used to working with regular concrete and mortar, I think I'm better off sticking to this wet method.

It's probably easier to get the surface of the dry bed to look more perfect than I got this one, but laying my straight edges on it, it couldn't be better for the next layer of thinset to lay the tile.

[Coop]

I agree with your logic as even the “Pros” screw up. After they laid the tile and it had set for a couple of days, I went thru with a 1” dowel rod and tapped on the floor. I had seen this done on the commercial jobs by the GC. Our shower is 4’ x 7’ and I found an area that sounded hollow. The GC and tile guys agreed that it was solid and would hold up. I said bs and made them take not only the hollow sounding area up but the whole darn floor. That was 3 years ago and I still tap on it occasionally and it’s still solid. Not that will do me any good as I bet there are more than one Juan in my area! 

[Tom King]

Another thing:  The bedding compound I used can be mixed with a mixer.  I think the dry stuff probably has to be chopped with a hoe in a wheelbarrow.  I like mixing in a 5 gallon bucket with a big spade handled drill.  If I don't get around to cleaning out the bucket, I can just throw it away.  When I do the bathroom floor in the little building on the point, I'll have my BIL to help me, and use a concrete mixer.  He can be responsible for cleaning the mixer out.  Working by myself, I don't mind throwing a bucket away.

I'll show my method of laying the floor tile.  It's not fast, but should be better than the normal way.  It's the way I've always done it.  I'll show pictures of the different ways.  My way is slower.  I go for best way rather than fastest way.  I will need the pictures to explain though.  Maybe tomorrow, but I never know what tomorrow will bring.

[Tom King]

The floor tile to use on compound curved shower floors has small tiles.  I mainly have always used the hex version. It all comes in about one foot square pieces held together with a mesh on the back.  If it's put down the normal way using a notched trowel that leaves standing ridges and the tile pushed down onto the ridges so that none is pushed up through the gaps between the tiles the likelihood that the mortar will be bonded all across all the tiles is not good. These squares also have a sticker stuck to the back.  I always wonder how many people pull the sticker off.  Those are some reasons for a hollow sound, because there are hollows under the tile.

In short, there is a lot of possibility of poor contact all across every tile with the normal method.  I use softer than normal mixed thinset mortar, butter the backs of the tiles, and plaster a thin layer on the floor before I use an oversized notched trowel to spread the thinset.  The tile section is pressed down into the thin, but not too thin to hold the tile up thinset with the straightedge to exactly the level I want.  This lets thinset ooze up through the gaps between the tiles, but not only is the tile in the exact plane I want, but also fully bonded across all the tile backs. 

This makes a mess on the top.  I'm sure pro tile layers avoid making this mess at the expense of perfectly full bonding of all the tiles.  I don't want hollows left under a tile floor that is going to get wet.  My theory is that water will get in there, never be able to get out, and be perfect conditions that mold will like.  There are many showers and bathtub surrounds where mold grows and the owner wonders why it comes back so fast with the best cleaning efforts.

This mess that I make on the surface makes extra work because it has to be cleaned off.  It's easiest to be cleaned off by letting it sit for 6 or 7 hours.  It's also impossible to do a whole large shower floor in one go.  When I was building new houses, we would lay one row first thing in the morning, and I would clean it about 3 that afternoon, with the time in between spent doing something else like building cabinets.

Here, it just sits and waits.  Yesterday morning I cut the first row like it needed to be in preparation.  I got a late start, and had to work on the tile saw that had been sitting for a few years since the last shower redo.  The water line from the pump to the saw had gotten hard and broke when I put it in place in the tub under the saw.  I spent more time than I wanted to finding a tube that would work in the shop and getting it replaced.  I decided to wait until this morning to lay the tile because I didn't want to have to go over there last night to clean it.  Hopefully I'll get it started this morning, but I'm waiting for it to warm up a bit above freezing before I go mix the thinset.

The screw adjustment on the drain was adjusted to give me 1/8" per foot drop from the longest point away from the drain.  These drains cost $9.84.  I bought two knowing the first one would get messy from the tile setting.  That top will get screwed out and a new one put in near the end.

 

[Tom King]

Here is my main cleaning tool for between the tiles.  Plastic knives with serrated edges.  Sometimes it was hard to find white ones.  Black ones can leave markoff marks.  Finally, after decades of shopping in grocery stores, sometimes having to go to more than one, I thought to order a box of 1,000 clear ones.  It takes a big handful to do a shower floor because the teeth wear off.

The thinset needs to be set up enough so it doesn't smear, but not too hard to easily dig out.  It's not as bad as it sounds, but is more work than not having to do it.  

[Tom King]

I laid the first row this morning, but it was a bad time to take pictures working by myself.  It's messy, but the only way I've been able to figure out how to get it 100% bedded and exactly the right height and perfect slope.

Hands were too messy to take another picture while in the middle of it.

[Tom King]

At 4:00 it was still a little softer than ideal, but stiff enough so it wouldn't re-bond to something if broken loose, so I raked the joints.  It's better not to try to wipe all the broken loose mortar off until tomorrow.  If I wiped it with a sponge or anything, it would make another mess.  It will clean right up in the morning.  It took about 20 minutes to clean out the first row.  It would have gone faster but I didn't figure out until close to the end that the back of the plastic knives were just the right thickness to rake the joint in one pass.

This is much like laying stone.  You wait until the end of the day to rake the joints if you want a recessed joint.

I rubbed the cut edge of the old floor tile with a carborundum stone before I started laying the tile this morning, so there would not be a sharp edge there for bare feet on that side of the grout joint.  The new tile is exactly flush with the top of the old floor, and tapers down from there to the drain.

Drops of water are from rinsing off the knives, but with the mortar this soft I found it better to just use a bunch of knives while they were dry and dropped them in the cleaning bucket.  They all rinsed off after I was finished and will be reused again.  These 1,000 will be more than a lifetime supply for me but are the best I've ever used, so I'm glad I bought them.  51 years into doing this type of thing now, and I'm still learning.

[Coop]

I pity the poor fella that has to remove these, 75 years from now! Looking good! 

[Tom King]

I laid the second row this morning.  It looks like I'm going to have between 8 and 10 hours in laying this 4x6 shower floor, including the cleaning the way it's going.  It's a slow go by myself having to stop so many times to clean the screeds as I go along.    A helper would cut the time in less than half. 

It would have been easier if I could start on the far side and work out, but that would make it unlikely to end up correctly with the old floor.  I'm afraid to lay too much in one session because for these first two rows I'm working inside the shower.  If I ran more than that at one time that I might step on it while it's soft, which would be a disaster.  I'm running out of room inside the shower and having to reach back across the freshly laid row to use the cleaning bucket. 

New work doing a whole bathroom floor would have been simpler.  I used to do the shower floor as part of the whole bathroom floor in my new houses.  When I poured the shower floor base, it was done as I framed the house, before walls were stood up so I could use one screed and just let it run over the outer edges of the framed opening.

[Tom King]

While my BIL is here, I had him help me put the beaded board up in the ceiling.  I had cut it all and prepainted it.  I was a bit worried that if I had made a mistake measuring and cutting the complicated pieces with holes drilled for lights and AC vent that it would cause a lot of trouble having to cut another one, but it all fit perfectly.  One more worry put behind me.

[Tom King]

Waiting on the wall tile to get here, so doing other things around the Ponderosa.  Mostly trail maintenance.  Hasn't been much like February. Pam measured the trails with her watch.  We always thought we had several miles, and she came up with 4-1/2, but thinks she may have missed one.  SIL says they're better than a lot she's been on in parks.

[Tom King]

I started setting the wall tile today.  I had installed a 1 foot by 2 foot tile floor some years back and it was a real fight.  This time it was super easy thanks to some new tools.  A tile vibrator should be considered mandatory for large tile, and I bought a cheap big tile cutter that is really the nicest one I've ever used.  The vibrator drops the tile right down to be guided by a straight edge held in the other hand.

Spin Doctor leveling system left over from that floor job works great too.  The rest of the walls should go up pretty quickly.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B088PBTV86/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CNCWCRFR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

[Tom King]

I've probably bought almost everything sold to smooth the cut edge of pieces so there is no sharp corner, but this little thing does the best job of anything yet.  It's about 3/4's round, and the other quarter has a flat section.  I'm mostly using the flat section.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MN6HC2Z/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Tom King]

The glass cutting blade I use on my tile saw was not cutting quite as smoothly as I would have liked it to, so I tried one of these, really not expecting it to do much.  It surprised me and just using it one quick time, the blade now leaves perfectly smooth cuts.  I still have to cut the little pieces to go in two edges of the floor, and was almost ready to buy a new blade, but this did the job.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NCVH70?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

[Tom King]

Rained out today again, so no mortar making or cleaning up outside.  I'm glad to get the rain for the new grass, but I've missed half the possible working days for the past couple of weeks because of it.

I've had laser guides on a number of different things but never really liked any of them.  I like the one built into this tile cutter.  To cut multiples exactly the same, I mark the measurement on each end of a tile, line the marks up with the laser line, slide the floppy fence against the tile and lock the ends down.  It cuts multiples exactly the same, much easier than with the tile saw.

I should have qualified the little diamond file more.  It's fine for finish smoothing, but won't really take off much.  I use it behind the Marshalltown carbide grit file.  The Marshalltown file doesn't leave the edge as smooth as the other factory edges, but followed by the little diamond file, it does.

I didn't get any laid today, but have all the half pieces cut and all the finish pieces for the first wall.  I had a hard time yesterday cutting the holes for the shower valves.  I had bought cheap diamond hole saws for the tiles around the drain and the valves but the built in shank on the big one wrung off so I had to improvise.

 

[Tom King]

I have it all laid except for fitting around the window.  I decided to stop there for today and start on that tedious part tomorrow when I'm fresh.  Not enough room in it now to take pictures as I have two of the little scaffold benches in the shower and everything is jumbled up.  I'll take some pictures when I get everything moved out.  I'll probably leave the benches where they are and do the grouting from top down.  It's a good sized shower, but not a lot of room in it to work with everything that I'm using by myself.

It would go a lot faster if I had some help, but I'm getting it done.

For the 12x24 tiles, I'm using three five gallon buckets.  One for the thinset mortar, one for cleaning water and sponges, and one empty one.  To put mortar on the tiles, I lay a tile across the empty bucket with one end of the tile just hanging over the edge of the mortar bucket.  Using a 6" margin trowel, I put more than enough mortar on the tile and rake the notched trowel down the length of the tile.  Any excess mortar raked off the end just drops into the mortar bucket.  Handling and making the mortar takes the most time.

With these big tiles, I like putting the thinset on the tile instead of the wall.  That way I can stop wherever I want to and not have to clean off the wall.

[Tom King]

I was sidetracked yesterday, but got back on it today and have all the wall tile up.  I still need to do something with the transition from the old tile to the new, but hopefully will get that done tomorrow.

I thought to take a picture of my two bucket method with these 12 x 24 tiles. 

Two different types of leveling systems just using up leftovers from another job years ago.  I like the Spin Doctor system the best, but had these wedge things that I tried and didn't like as much. I decided to use them up on the small pieces.  The full tiles are harder to move and the Spin Doctors have more mechanical advantage.

I ran the tile up to leave just a little room for the crown molding.  It would be too complicated turning the corner where the old bullnose tiles are if I ran them all the way to the ceiling.  Where it overlaps the sheetrock, I screwed some metal lath to the studs over the painted sheetrock.  I'm trying to avoid doing any painting of the walls.

Crown molding probably next week.  I can do a how-to in another thread on putting that up if anyone is interested.

I took the casing off that window and painted it all the way around.  If it shows any deterioration after this Summer season I'll change it to Corian next Winter.

First renters come the last week this month, and it's solid booked after that, so I need to get this all done pretty quickly.

[wtnhighlander]

Looking good Tom! 

Where do you source corian pieces for things like the window casing? I have a bathroom remodel in mind, that includes a walk in shower where the window is, but wondered how to waterproof that area.

[Coop]

Tile job is looking great. Is there a reason you didn’t replace the window stool and jamb with the same tile, to eliminate wood in a shower? 
The contractor that built our new bathroom used these instead of bull nose tiles. It sure makes a good transition in corners and edges. Maybe a thought on your next tile job. But definately not trying to tell a pro, how to do his job! 

[Tom King]

I haven't bought Corian at retail since the 1980's when I built countertops out of it.  I still have some left over scraps from sink cutouts and off cuts from sheets.  I made that little shelf out of some of it.  I probably don't have any pieces big enough for that window, but will find it on ebay or some place that builds stuff out of it.  I want it to look like a regular window.  The walls in that house are 19" thick, so it's a deep window stool. 

I thought about using tile for the window, but couldn't come up with a design I liked enough to spend any time on.  This is just cheap tile from Lowes and there is not a lot of choices on transition pieces.  We'll have well less than a grand in this conversion.

There may be a door or curtain going between the shower and that window, or maybe where the floor transitions, or maybe none at all.  We're going to have to try it to see.  The window sash are out of splash angle any kind of way.

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of those metal edges.  The house is still a 1974 house.  Pam just wanted to use the big tile so there are less grout joints to keep clean.  If we had been able to find tile like was originally used in there, we would have used it.  This is better than a green fiberglass shower though.

It's really a slow go by myself.  The tile saw is set up outside about 75 feet away outside and every time I have to walk out of that bathroom, which is for about anything, I have to clean my shoes to make sure I don't track mortar anywhere.  I have the floor in there wrapped up with plastic and Masonite hardboard.  I'll be very glad when this job is finished.

 

[Tom King]

Kind of a balancing act, but I got it up there.  We were able to save these pieces from on top of the fiberglass shower, but not enough to wrap the whole end of that partition to exactly match the old part. To help build out the thickness under those bullnose tiles I put three layers of metal lath strips screwed through the sheetrock into the studs.

[Tom King]

One last thing I had to do was clean up the transition where the old wall tile meets the new.  The tile and thick mud base we took off the exterior wall was much thicker than what I put back on, so the old wall was a bit short to meet the new.  We had managed to save enough tile from what we tore out to have enough to even out the transition.

Michelangelo would have been proud of the chisel work cleaning off the tiles that had to be replaced. Just like woodworking, a sharp chisel made all the difference.  I wonder how many tile men have a CBN grinder to be able to keep their carbide tipped chisels sharp.

The old tiles came off pretty cleanly, leaving the old mud base too proud to be able to use even the thinnest of thinset under the replacements, so I'm putting the replacements on with thick super glue.  I'll let the little cove piece set up until tomorrow to stack the others on top of.

The little piece of cove was cut out of a thick section of the old wall.  The mud base was an inch thick and had steel lath in it.  The blade I was using on the tile saw was about done anyway, so I used it to slice out the little cove piece.  I thought sure it would complain when it hit the mesh, but it never knew any difference.  The grout joint in the corner is not nearly as large as it looks in the picture.  That piece of cove is pretty small.