cannot seem to plane end-grain

[thaitang]

Hi gang,

I live in a "very" remote corner of Asia and life is good, except I took it upon myself to make some much! needed furniture. Tools are hard to come by, but wood is easy to appropriate, hardwood at that, but I do not know what kind. But it is heavy and and I cannot for the life of me plane the ends of these planks.

I have bought myself a power drill, and all the rest of my tools must be hand tools as dictated by my budget. There is no such thing as different planes, so what I am including a photo of is standard fare and the only fare available. I have never used a plane before this past month, but almost immediately I got results (as in the good kind) planing the edges of these boards (1x4's and 2x4's in 1 & 2 meter lengths), but I cannot seem to get anything close to good results trying to plane the ends. I have treid in all direction in case I am going against the grain but I get the same problem, the plane digs into the wood and well does not float across like it does the edges.

I have tried backing off the blade until it is even not protruding, and although the plane glides freely no wood is shaved off. Then I sucked it up and began rasping and filing the ends, but GD that takes forever. One board took me all day yesterday to get perfectly square. This wood seems super hard, so I am not sure if that could be contributing to my problems, but it sure seemed to impede my rasping and filing efforts.

I googled some more and decided to make myself a shooting board. Yes, this sounded like the answer to my problems. Got one all fixed up but again the plane just digs into the ends of these boards, but planes the edges just fine. Hrmmm. I am getting a little frustrated and although I have plenty of hair I fear it will soon be coming out in clumps. I am trying to use my shooting board on the ground for lack of a work bench (next project, if I get that far), which works fine for planing the edges so I cannot see that being an issue for the ends, could it be?

I do not know what else I can offer other than some photos, and see if we can get me mobiling here making some basic sturdy furniture so I get wake up a few feet off the floor

Ok pix uploaded alright.

Pix #1: profile of the plane I am able to source locally.

Pix #2: bottom of aforementioned plane

Pix #3: my shooting board made using a particle board table top: cheap and easy to source, plywood not so easy, but seems to work fine

Pix #4: wood I am able to plane edges of but not the end grains

Pix #5 & #6: the digging in effect of the plane on the end grain. And once it digs in then things just seem to get worst.

I have tried dragging the plane, both pushing and pulling, with steady sure force, but no love. Then I usually resort to a little more haphazard force and adopt a more abrupt push and dig style which I know is unlikely to work, and well never does, but it is the only way to get the plane moving across this end grain. When I plane the edges I just need to lean my body into the plane and it seems to be enough to get it started and then I am usually off and running, and even if I dig in the same motion usually smooths out any kind of dig marks and so no problems.

Can anyone provide some advice? This project is hung up, and it is giving me a headache to think of using washers on uneven ends to get a tight fit (cheap shims I guess).

cheers

[Onboard]

Hello thaitang and welcome to the forum.

I’m not the expert here, but I did have some questions. Have you tried skewing your plane? Planing with your plane at an angle to the board end will shear the end fibers and you might be able to get through a cut that way. Also, how sharp is your plane iron? Do you know what kind of metal your plane iron is? It’s the old trade off, A2 will take longer to sharpen but hold an edge longer. O1 will typically give you a sharper edge than A2 only because it is a “softer” metal and easier to get a fine edge, and will take less time to sharpen / re-sharpen. Of course O1 will have to re-sharpened more frequently than A2 steel. In extremely hard wood such as your working with you’ll need to re-sharpen quite often, and of course you’ll need to take thin shavings as you probably already have experienced.

You should be getting other replies fairly soon, and I'm sure they will be more helpful than my questions and comments. They may be able to tell you what kind of wood you have. Then the janka hardness can be found as compared to other commonly known hard woods.

[rmac]

Planing end grain can be difficult, as you have discovered. From the first picture you posted, it looks like the angle between the plane blade and the wood is about 45 degrees. This is about right for general purpose use, but not so good for end grain. For end grain, it is better if the angle is smaller, as I have shown in the second picture below.

Skewing the plane as Onboard suggested makes the effective angle smaller, but that will not work with a shooting board. And a shooting board is a very good idea for planing the ends of boards.

So, if you cannot find a plane for sale with a lower blade angle, maybe you could make one?

The other thing to worry about is the sharpness of your blade. As Onboard said, the blade needs to be really really sharp for end grain use.

The second half of this page says about the same thing as I have, but maybe in different words.

-- Russ

[Onboard]

Russ, thank you for your reply. How the first principles of planing end grain slipped my mind I’m uncertain. That is a bevel-up, low angle plane iron, and possibly with a skewed blade in this case. After reading thaitang’s comment “There is no such thing as different planes…” meaning he has no other planes, I was trying to explain how he might do this with the plane he has. Oh well.

As far as a shooting board, I know that helps finesse end grain, but on the very dense wood that he has, he would not only need a bevel-up, low angle plane, but one that is fairly massive to help move the plane through the dense end fibers. Just a thought. Again, I’m not the expert by any means.

[tombuhl]

End grain is very challenging. For end grain of difficult material, you generally want to have a low angle plane. For occasional end grain planing many people use a low angle block plane. But with shooting board you want something with as much mass as you can control. If you are unable to purchase/borrow a suitable plane, and are resourceful you might consider making a plane. Could even use the blade you already have. Sharpness is so important.

Some tricks are to wet the end with denatured alcohol or similar solvent which can soften the fibers but not permanently alter the wood. As it evaporates, you can apply more. Applying wax to the plane sole can help, but seems you are not getting far enough along for that to a problem.

Very small blade protrusion is important.

A fine tooth saw may give you a suitable end if you have that skill and good saw.

Any possibility of finding someone with chop or table saw to assist with critical cuts?

Last resort (or maybe first):

Design you furniture so that completely square and smooth is not an issue.

Can't say I've ever used a rasp to square ends of boards, but that sounds like a gruesome and very difficult way to go.

Wishing you the best on your project. The above or future comments may be able to give you a successful path. Sometimes just a small tidbit can be enough to get you over the challenge.

[Jonathryn]

Your plane looks like it's at about 50º, which is good for regular planing on hard wood, but not ideal for end grain. From the chatter on the end grain, it looks like your iron may be too far out. Tap the iron out to get as small a shaving as you can. Lastly, it seems like your plane iron isn't as sharp as it could be. The difference between sharp and shaving-sharp is the difference between being able to plane endgrain and the awful sounds and sights of making splinters. If you're in a very rural area, as it seems from your description, you may want to check in with local craftsmen to see if they have something to sharpen with beyond the basic two-tone sharpening stones. A local chef or butcher may also have a favored hone. You can strop on some coarse canvas or leather. Keep in mind that planing end grain also dulls your blade quickly.

[aengland]

+1 on what others above have said!

Now, for the how to do so with only that plane: take a 1" chisel and sharpen it, preferably on water stones to an extremely sharp edge. I take mine to somewhere between 6000 to 13000 grit. Then chisel that end grain so as to remove the rough areas and saw marks. Once the end is flat, then go at it with your plane. Again, getting the blade sharp, sharp, sharp.

What you described initially would indicate a less sharp than needed blade. When sharpening my tools, I go over to pine (very soft wood) end grain and try to slice it. The resistance to slicing always equals a less sharpened edge. By the time I've worked up to 6000+ grits, the chisel is slicing the end grain without much resistance at all. My natural Arkansas stones, followed by a leather strop will achieve about a 5000 grit finish; but, that is just shy of easily slicing end grain (for me, anyway). Hence, I've invested in water stones to get better results.

BTW, how do you sharpen your blades?

Archie, near New Orleans, Louisiana

[ChrisG]

A sharp blade is FAR more important than a low angle for planing end grain - a low angle helps, yes - sometimes it helps a lot, but sharp blade at a 45+ degree angle will cut endgarin just fine, especially if you take very fine cuts. I'd worry less about the plane itself and the blade angle and more about the edge of the blade.

Your blade should, at a minimum be sharpen enough to shave hair of your arm.

Even better, take the blade in your hand, when its out of the plane, and try to pare a very thin section of endgrain with it. No need to take a full pass across the end grain - just try to peel up a section using the blade almost like a paring chisel - if the blade is sharp enough to shave and grain you should be able able to peel up a thin section of endgrain, and leave a smooth, ideally almost polished surface underneath.

Of course, you are using some wood that is proabably quite different from my north american hardwoods, so your mileage may very.

[wilburpan]

Besides the above advice (sharpen the blade, skew the plane, wet the wood, take as fine a shaving as you can), which are all very good pieces of advice, one thing is to check the sole of your plane to see if it's flat. If the sole isn't flat, you won't be able to take as fine a shaving as you could. One place to double check on is the sole immediately in back of the mouth behind the blade. If this is protruding down even a tiny bit, this can cause the plane to not take fine shavings well, which can lead to poor performance on end grain. Your plane may work well enough when planing the edges, but the end grain will cause it to perform badly.

[thaitang]

Hi gang,

I appreciate all the replies and suggestions. I don't have daily Internet access so sorry in advance about the long reply about to follow. The quote feature kept puking back an error so I finally just replaced the quote tags with double quotes. I hope it is easy to follow.

>>>"Have you tried skewing your plane? Planing with your plane at an angle to the board end will shear the end fibers and you might be able to get through a cut that way."

I did not think of that and so have not yet tried, but I am willing to try what might work.

>>>"Also, how sharp is your plane iron?"

I thought I was keeping it pretty sharp, but maybe not sharp enough. There is a bevel on the blade about 20-30 degrees I would estimate and I have only been sharpening the blade on the bevel with the standard style sharpening stone. I geberally drag the blade across the stationary stone, but perhaps moving the stone across the stationary blade would be a more agressive sharpening approach, but i really am not too sure. Works fine for the kitchen knives

>>>"Do you know what kind of metal your plane iron is?"

Not a clue. I will look closer at the blade and see what markings might give me a clue.

>>>"In extremely hard wood such as your working with you’ll need to re-sharpen quite often"

The wood is certainly what I would consider hard, very heavy indeed. I was worried in fact using the 2x4 bedrails supported by angled 1x4 might prove too heavy, but I figure if the wood is all the same kind then it should hold up alright. While trying to figure something here that might work I have been what I thought might be sharpening too much, but from what I am reading, maybe not enough.

>>>"So, if you cannot find a plane for sale with a lower blade angle, maybe you could make one?"

Ok so keeping in mind I have the most basic set of wood tools, enough to make the shooting board I posted pix of, would it be possible for me to make my own low angle block plane, or even acquire a second plane like the one I already have and make some modifications? I thought about how I could alter the angle but it has not lead to any winning ideas yet.

>>>"There is no such thing as different planes…” meaning he has no other planes, I was trying to explain how he might do this with the plane he has"

Yeah, pretty much what I got seems like the only game in town, until I get can get out of town for a week and add that to my list of things to look for in the bigger smokes.

>>>"If you are unable to purchase/borrow a suitable plane, and are resourceful you might consider making a plane. Could even use the blade you already have. Sharpness is so important."

As I mentioned if anyone thinks I have a chance of building a DIY'er with basic tools I am game to have a go at it. I can get more of the same blades illustrated in the photos I posted in my first thread.

>>>"Very small blade protrusion is important."

I have gone from one extreme (I think) to the other with no love yet.

>>>"A fine tooth saw may give you a suitable end if you have that skill and good saw."

Ok for a good laugh I am sure, I admit to even trying to slowly cut with a hacksaw to increase accuracy but i think no matter what the blade is too flexible and always ends up giving way between my sawing and the wood.

>>>"Any possibility of finding someone with chop or table saw to assist with critical cuts?"

There is a local wood furniture shop I have been so tempted to ask if they will square my boards and see how they do it. I guess vanity/pride/ego (whatever) has so far got the better of me on that score.

>>>"Design you furniture so that completely square and smooth is not an issue."

What kind of ideas might you have? Maybe building corner caps to look ornamental but functional to hide my unsquareness, or maybe like some kind of rough wood designs like the log look or something?

>>>"Can't say I've ever used a rasp to square ends of boards, but that sounds like a gruesome and very difficult way to go."

God you said it. I just cannot do that to myself again. It was bruuuutal!

>>>"Lastly, it seems like your plane iron isn't as sharp as it could be. The difference between sharp and shaving-sharp is the difference between being able to plane endgrain and the awful sounds and sights of making splinters."

Ok I am sure then my blade is not as sharp as it likely needs to be then.

>>>"If you're in a very rural area, as it seems from your description, you may want to check in with local craftsmen to see if they have something to sharpen with beyond the basic two-tone sharpening stones. A local chef or butcher may also have a favored hone."

Yeap, the two tone sharpening stone is exactly what I have. I will look around some more.

>>>"You can strop on some coarse canvas or leather. Keep in mind that planing end grain also dulls your blade quickly."

Do you mind expounding a little further on the "stropping" process? I think I have seen heavy canvass in the local market I could buy if it might potentially help.

>>>"A sharp blade is FAR more important than a low angle for planing end grain - a low angle helps, yes - sometimes it helps a lot, but sharp blade at a 45+ degree angle will cut endgarin just fine, especially if you take very fine cuts. I'd worry less about the plane itself and the blade angle and more about the edge of the blade."

Well that is encouraging to read.

>>>"Your blade should, at a minimum be sharpen enough to shave hair of your arm."

I will try when i get home.

>>>"Even better, take the blade in your hand, when its out of the plane, and try to pare a very thin section of endgrain with it. No need to take a full pass across the end grain - just try to peel up a section using the blade almost like a paring chisel - if the blade is sharp enough to shave and grain you should be able able to peel up a thin section of endgrain, and leave a smooth, ideally almost polished surface underneath."

Good advice for guaging how sharp the blade needs to be.

>>>"one thing is to check the sole of your plane to see if it's flat. If the sole isn't flat, you won't be able to take as fine a shaving as you could. One place to double check on is the sole immediately in back of the mouth behind the blade."

Ok I will check it out also. I have looked at the general condition of the plane's belly and it appeared alright on an uninformed cursory looksie. But i will take a more determined look when I return home.

Guys (and ladies, if any are reading) I really appreciate all the advice and suggestions sofar. I am really stoked about making some wood furniture, so if I can get this sorted I will be quite pleased.

cheers,

tt

[jwatson]

what kind of wood are you planing?

[Jonathryn]

Stropping. When you sharpen a plane blade or a chisel, you go through progressively finer grits to refine the edge, eventually ending with a strop. Once you have a very sharp tool, it's easy to keep it sharp by touching it up with the strop. I got some green chalky buffing compound at a local Harbor Freight and put it on some leather. If there's a metal worker in your little village, he might have some sort of polishing compound. It's just a very fine abrasive. If you have access to some sort of metal polishing cream and put it on to some canvas or leather, that might work. Maybe even tooth paste? You pull the plane blade across the strop, paying particular attention to the cutting edge. If you push the edge, it'll catch and cut the leather/canvas. At any rate, the strop will darken, which indicates that the compound is abrading the edge, and therefore polishing it. Barbers sometimes strop a straight razor on their own palm.

If you can watch video on the computer where you are, this is a good place to start (other people may have different suggestions):

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2009/08/episode-5/

Keep in mind, different people have different tools and sharpening stuff available to them, and they're able to do great work. Don't get the feeling you need *this* or *that* particular stone. Experience is the best tool for all of this, and it's so much easier now with the internet.

[jHop]

There are many different materials you can get for stropping, and many different compounds you can apply to them. My own personal favorite is jeweler's rouge on a strip of leather, but you can use buffing compounds, wax, creams, polishes, and more.

you can also, in a pinch, use a section of your old (non-wearable) blue jeans. Since this is a denim, there are fibers you want to avoid cutting, but the fabric weaves are diagonal to the direction of the blade travel. Keep in mind, you want to drag the blade across the strop, not cut into it, so you will be applying pressure as you pull the blade towards you. Will you get to 6000+ on your grit? I doubt it. But if you want something to take that plane edge up a step after your current sharpening process without spending a whole lot, I'd suggest starting with your old jeans.

As for making your own planes, I'd suggest looking at some of the kits available online. Not for purchase, but for the instructions. Maybe you can find a set of instructions that will inspire you to make your own using what you have available, and will not diminish the budget.