Finishing Douglas Fir Mantle

[jp4LSU]

Newbie here looking for advice. In addition to this project I'll be refinishing a dining room set soon, so I'm sure I'll need some advice for that as well.

Subject: Doug Fire Hand Hewn Mantle and Corbels

Concern: Raised grain running down face of corbel and raised end grain

Desired result: http://www.larryjwhe...album=121&pos=0

My mantle is identical to the one pictured in the link. Made by same timber company. You can see the raised grain running down the corbel and at the end.

Question: How can I acheive this look?

Current Path: Staining with Dark Walnut Stain to desired darkness which will be really dark. Then finish with multiple coats of Tung Oil

I'm worried about the raised grain really standing out with lighter color, which is not desired. Basically I'm trying to achieve the same even finish as in the picture. Even finish where grain is blended in with surrounding wood. I've not done Doug Fir before and am not sure how the grain behaves.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

JP

[Bob Rozaieski]

The one in the picture is likely not stained or dyed. Instead, the topcoat, whether it is poly or laquer, is likely toned and the whole thing sprayed. Keeping the color on the surface of the wood is the only way to avoid blotching and unevenness in the finish with these soft woods and uneven rough textures. For something like the picture, try either coloring shellac with something like TransTint dye, or you could try a commercial product like Minwax Polyshades which is basically a colored polyurethane varnish. Try it on scrap (preferrably) or a hidden area of the piece first to make sure it's what you want.

[jp4LSU]

Thanks Bob. I was afraid it was something like that. Now I've not used shellac before.

Is it easy to work with or is the Minwax polyshade easy to work with?

Polyshades:

Can you apply more than one coat to desired darkness? Is it one and done?

Is it available in satin or flat? I don't want shiny at all but a muted finish.

Applying over stain:

If I stain the mantle and don't like it, can a polyshade or shellac go over that?

Thanks again for the help.

JP

[Bob Rozaieski]

Both are easy to work with. You can apply as many coats as you like to get it however dark you like. The benefit of the shellac is that you tint it yourself, so you can really dial in the color you want. With the Polyshades, you're stuck with the colors they sell. Another big difference is that the Polyshades uses pigments suspended in the varnish so the finish will muddy the grain up some when applied, especially in multiple coats. The shallec mixed with Transtint will provide a more translucent finish that will let more of the grain show through. Also, in my opinion, the shellac is easier to repair or remove if you're not crazy about it because it can be completely removed or just partially removed using alcohol. The poly requires harsh strippers and lots of sanding if you don't like it.

On the other hand, poly will be more durable. Shellac is not as heat tolerant if you put a hot coffee cup right on top of the finish. It will also water spot if it is left wet for an extended period of time (it's fine if spills are cleaned up right away, even adult beverages).

As for the stain, you can put either over a stain, but neither will completely cover the stain if you don't like the stain. The stain will still show through becasue both are tansparent finishes, the shellac even more so than the poly. The best thing would be to try a few different things on scrap or a hidden spot, like the part that will face the wall, before you apply any finish to the visible areas of the piece.

[jp4LSU]

Thanks a lot for the help Bob. I did a pine coffee table with dark stain and the grains don't really jump out at you, which is kinda what I'm looking fore here. But the raised grain on the end grain and on the corbels had me concerned if they would take enough color to blend in enough.

I'll need to do a little more thinking on this to decide what way to go. Of course the wife complicates matters. She wants it like the picture and I'm more of a stain guy.

Since I want it dark, I'm thinking if I stained it and we (she) didn't like it I could go over it with a polyshade to blend in the raised grain better. The polyshade would also be dark so I wouldn't care if the dark stain showed through. Am I misguided here?

[jp4LSU]

After thinking about it, I think I will stay away from the polyshades. If we don't like it removing it from the mantle would be a bad experience.

Now what about tinted danish oil. Would that behave just like the stain with raised grain standing out. I think the end grain you could apply a natural to and keep it from getting so dark, but I believe the tinted danish oil would color to the same degree as the stain.

[duckkisser]

would ebonizing work? then you can clear coat over the top.

[jp4LSU]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is ebonizing?

I assume it would be black. I wouldn't want it to be black.

I did a little of Minwax Jacobean on the back of it and the open grain areas looked black.

[duckkisser]

wasnt sure how dark you would want it. ebonizing is doing a chemical coloring of the tanons in the wood no idea how dark fir would get but i have made a few projects using ebonizing and i like it and the students like it quite a bit.

http://www.wwgoa.com...ebonizing-wood/

even thinking of soaking some wood long term in a bin of this stuff to turn large amounts of lumber solid black i have had some success at making solid black lumber but havent dont it in large quantities or in thick lumber i think it would be cool to turn some solid black vases that look like gabon ebony.

[Bob Rozaieski]

I did a little of Minwax Jacobean on the back of it and the open grain areas looked black.

Not surprising. Pigment stains settle into irregularities (scratches, tearout, gouges, holes, etc.) and stay there making them much darker than the smooth parts. That's why rustic pieces like this are not typically stained unless they are colored with a dye that is sprayed. Spraying coats everything evenly and doesn't allow excess to pool into recesses and low areas where it can't be removed. I think your only way to get an even finish on a rough surface like that is going to be to use a colored film finish like those I mentioned previously. Any kind of pigment stain or dye is going to settle into the surface irregularities and make those areas very dark and uneven, unless you spray it on in thin, even applications.

[jp4LSU]

wasent shure how dark you would want it ebonizing is doing a chemical coloring of the tanons in the wood no idea how dark fir would get but i have made a few projects using ebonizing and i like it and the students like it quite a bit.

http://www.wwgoa.com...ebonizing-wood/

even thinking of soaking some wood long term in a bin of this stuff to turn large amounts of lumber solid black i have had some success at making solid black lumber but havent dont it in large quantities or in thick lumber i think it would be cool to turn some solid black vases that look like gabon ebony.

Thanks for the info DK. That is interesting and I might have to try that out one day. That could add a little something special to a detailed piece.

[jp4LSU]

Not surprising. Pigment stains settle into irregularities (scratches, tearout, gouges, holes, etc.) and stay there making them much darker than the smooth parts. That's why rustic pieces like this are not typically stained unless they are colored with a dye that is sprayed. Spraying coats everything evenly and doesn't allow excess to pool into recesses and low areas where it can't be removed. I think your only way to get an even finish on a rough surface like that is going to be to use a colored film finish like those I mentioned previously. Any kind of pigment stain or dye is going to settle into the surface irregularities and make those areas very dark and uneven, unless you spray it on in thin, even applications.

Thanks Bob. Well I grew impatient yesterday and talked with my wife and let her know that if I stain it you will still see the grain and the end grain areas will soak it up and be pretty dark. I made it clear that it wouldn't look like the picture where the finish was even and the grain was not really visible. She agreed that that would be fine so we dove in and stained it last night.

I think it looks decent. I will try to get some pictures tomorrow. The grain is pronounced and a golden brown with dark walnut stain.

I'll put a second coat on tonight in hopes of getting the grain a little darker and less pronounced.

Do you guys think there is any luck of that happening. Should I sand it a bit to rough up the grain so it would soak a little more in?

Thanks again guys for the help and advice. I'll get some pics up tomorrow hopefully. I forgot to take a pic yesterday.

[dwacker]

Sand your end grain to 600 grit and the rest to 180. Oversanding the end grain will help prevent it from sucking in excess stain.

Don

[jp4LSU]

I've got a few closeup pics of the mantle for you guys, and I also moved the mantle to the fireplace it will be on to see what looked like against the stone and in the light of the actual room.

I'm kinda liking it as it is. It's supposed to rustic and old world looking, which I think it accomplishes that. So I'm kinda in the air on whether I want to fool with it other than putting some coats of tung oil on it.

If I do anything to it, I would maybe want to mute the long face grain some and get it blend in a little better. That might just require a top finish coat for that, which means no tung oil in the end.

What do you guys think?

I'll get the pics in the next post. For some reason the only way I could do it was paste my photobucket link in here.

[jp4LSU]

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/jp4lsu/Mantle/

[JMadson Custom Wood]

I haven't read all the posts, so excuse if the solution has already been found. That being said, I would recommend General Finishes gel stains. They go on thicker, easier to handle and hit the color you want. You can put a clear top coat on right away as well. No botching whatsoever.

[jp4LSU]

Thanks JCW. I might try that on the straps with may an ebony to give a little contrast. Not sure if you saw the pics after it was stained.

My only question to myself is if I want to mute the long face grain or not. So the light grain doesn't pop out at you. I think that might only be accomplished with paint or tinted shellac/laquer/poly as Bob mentioned early on.

[Bob Rozaieski]

You'll likely need a tinted topcoat to mute the grain. Softwoods absorb stain in the light/dark pattern that you are seeing because the early wood and late wood are very different densities and absorb the stain differently. In fact, many soft woods will actually reverse the light/dark when you stain them. What I mean is that the rings that are darker color in the natural state will be lighter when stained because they are denser and absorb less stain. On the other hand, the rings that are lighter in color will absorb a lot more stain and become darker because they are the softer and less dense early wood. Eastern white pine is a good example of this light/dark switch when stained.