Finally, a #4 Smoother....

[protectedvoid]

So, just thought I'd share that I *finally* managed to secure a #4 Bailey - so, with shipping, I have a total of $25.50 in it. This one was manufactured in England, so I'm more or less wondering when it was manufactured. It appears to have almost the exact same configuration (Cap iron, Brass Adjusting Screw, raised ring on the toe, Bailey imprinted behind the knob, non-rounded iron, etc.) as my number 6, which I've confirmed was manufactured between 1931 and 1932 here in the US.

Would I be incorrect in making the assumption that this #4 could have been manufactured around the same time? Also, anyone have any thoughts or insights on the English made Bailey planes vs. the American made ones that they'd care to share?

[jlloydparks]

I will say it looks a bit newer than your #6. I am definitely going for post WWII. However, I couldn't peg it without seeing the text under the adjuster nut, which the ebay pictures leave out. Take a look at this site for dating Stanley planes, it may help you out a bit.

All-in-all the English planes held their quality post WWII much better than their American cousins, so I expect that you have a reasonably good plane that will tune up very well. I might suggest dropping a new Hock, Veritas or Lie-Nielsen blade into it. You will find the slightly thicker blade a benefit to a smoother. I would go with a typical O1 carbon steel blade, but you could also do an A2 as well.

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

[Gregory Paolini]

For what it's worth, the Hock blade is probobly going to be your best choice, if you choose to upgrade the blade. I'm not sure if the LN will fit the plane - The LN's a bit too thick for a stock #4.

-gp

[protectedvoid]

@Greg, @Josh

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have to be sure to check for those numbers. The site you (Josh) posted is how I dated the other two Stanley planes I have. It was a very useful site. I'll go back and see if I can find information particular to the English made planes. As for the iron, if I decide to upgrade the iron, I will most likely go with a Hock O1 blade. I've just heard too many good things about them, and they are VERY reasonably priced, compared to my options locally.

I'm excited, actually. Based on the photos, I have to agree it should tune very, very nicely. I guess all that's left is to find a Shoulder, Rabbit, and Jointer plane, though I imagine I could tune my #6 to serve as a jointer plane as well?

When I've finished all three, I'll post pics of the completed "refurbs".

[muddlermike]

Actually, they stopped type dating the Stanleys once they started making them in England. It was the last straw in Stanley's plane making decline. Type 20 - which was the final years they made them in the US - was 1962 to 1967. So, if it was made in England, then it is 1968 to present. Sorry to say that the English Baileys were known for their poor quality, so it might take more work to get it shaving well if at all, compared to your type 15 No. 6.

Frankly, with WW2 came mass production, and many hand tool manufacturers' quality suffered. Despite Stanley's popularity, they were one of the first to allow their quality to decline. Ironically their name endured, mainly because they were smart enough to market it to a new demographic in the 1950's - home do it yourselfers. They started making planes with less surface to the frog faces to make them quicker to mill, thinner irons, thinner base castings, poor fit and finish, and over all chatter-boxes - especially the economy lines like 4 square, handyman, and defiance. The ironic thing was the other plane manufacturers like Sargent and Miller's Falls tried to compete by offering economy lines of their own, but they couldn't let go of making a quality product and slowly started to fade out. The funny thing is a Sargent Hercules model or Miller's Falls #900 were still better quality planes that the same year's Stanley Baileys. Another unfortunate problem with stanley is that they were making planes for a number of companies post WW2 including Union and Record, so their poor quality showed up in many offerings.

Once into the 60's, you were hard pressed to find a decent hand plane anywhere. The companies that now carry the torch for planes are Lie Nielson, Veritas (Lee Valley), and Clifton, as well as a number of boutique plane makers. Stanley is trying to regain their reputation, but even their new sweetheart line has come under significant criticism. One new economy plane maker that I have been impressed with is Anant. They are made in India, and despite being a little rough out of the box are excellent planes.

I agree, a new iron would help matters greatly - the English Baileys were known for poor quality steel in their irons. I have a couple of Veritas planes and their irons sharpen well. I also have replaced a number of my antique plane irons with Hock replacements and they are superb.

All is not lost, but don't expect it to perform as well as your No. 6. Hope this helps.

Mike

[protectedvoid]

Actually, they stopped type dating the Stanleys once they started making them in England. It was the last straw in Stanley's plane making decline. Type 20 - which was the final years they made them in the US - was 1962 to 1967. So, if it was made in England, then it is 1968 to present. Sorry to say that the English Baileys were known for their poor quality, so it might take more work to get it shaving well if at all, compared to your type 15 No. 6.

Frankly, with WW2 came mass production, and many hand tool manufacturers' quality suffered. Despite Stanley's popularity, they were one of the first to allow their quality to decline. Ironically their name endured, mainly because they were smart enough to market it to a new demographic in the 1950's - home do it yourselfers. They started making planes with less surface to the frog faces to make them quicker to mill, thinner irons, thinner base castings, poor fit and finish, and over all chatter-boxes - especially the economy lines like 4 square, handyman, and defiance. The ironic thing was the other plane manufacturers like Sargent and Miller's Falls tried to compete by offering economy lines of their own, but they couldn't let go of making a quality product and slowly started to fade out. The funny thing is a Sargent Hercules model or Miller's Falls #900 were still better quality planes that the same year's Stanley Baileys. Another unfortunate problem with stanley is that they were making planes for a number of companies post WW2 including Union and Record, so their poor quality showed up in many offerings.

Once into the 60's, you were hard pressed to find a decent hand plane anywhere. The companies that now carry the torch for planes are Lie Nielson, Veritas (Lee Valley), and Clifton, as well as a number of boutique plane makers. Stanley is trying to regain their reputation, but even their new sweetheart line has come under significant criticism. One new economy plane maker that I have been impressed with is Anant. They are made in India, and despite being a little rough out of the box are excellent planes.

I agree, a new iron would help matters greatly - the English Baileys were known for poor quality steel in their irons. I have a couple of Veritas planes and their irons sharpen well. I also have replaced a number of my antique plane irons with Hock replacements and they are superb.

All is not lost, but don't expect it to perform as well as your No. 6. Hope this helps.

Mike

Thanks for the additional input, Mike. I have no qualms about putting in the time to tune it properly, and I've gotten to be pretty methodical about it, actually. That being said, since my disposable income is limited and I have a lot going on right now, I'm going to see how well the blade in the #4 performs after being sharpened. If I'm not getting satisfactory shavings, then I'll dish out for the Hock.

As for the Anant, it was my understanding that Anant is actually produced by the same Indian manufacturers that were producing planes for Record. Something like when the English pulled out of India and Record faded, the Indian manufacturers just kept producing the planes, and marketed them under the Anant name. I've held a couple of the Anants at a local tool seller. They seemed to be fairly decent planes, price was very reasonable...but after having tuned the 19th Century #5 Jack plane, and the work I've done this far on the #6, I suspect the two I have will end up being superior performers to the Anant, and I paid for both what a #5 Anant would cost.

Either way, I am hopeful that I can get the #4 to perform sufficiently.

[muddlermike]

sorry - missed your next post's questions, PV. You might find getting a low angle block plane more useful than a shoulder plane for your next one. A shoulder plane is really handy when doing tenon and rabbet work, but finding a decent one gets expensive for both new or used/antique. A low angle block is versatile, and relatively easy to find for a decent price. Look for a model with an adjustable mouth like a Stanley No. 60 1/2, or a Miller's Falls No. 56.

[protectedvoid]

sorry - missed your next post's questions, PV. You might find getting a low angle block plane more useful than a shoulder plane for your next one. A shoulder plane is really handy when doing tenon and rabbet work, but finding a decent one gets expensive for both new or used/antique. A low angle block is versatile, and relatively easy to find for a decent price. Look for a model with an adjustable mouth like a Stanley No. 60 1/2, or a Miller's Falls No. 56.

I do have a block plane that I tuned. It was one my dad had purchased, then never used: 12-920 Bailey Block Plane - I had to spend 3 hours lapping the sole on this damn thing...but once I got it perfectly flat, and sharpened the unused iron to superior sharpness, it makes very nice, tissue paper thin shavings (on maple, anyhow).

[protectedvoid]

So, I received the #4 and tuned it up over this past weekend...a chore that took almost 3 hours to do. I'm very happy with the results, however. The sole is absolutely dead flat, the sides are 90° to the sole and are also (nearly) dead flat. There's actually a small convex edge around the outer perimeter of the sides, about 1/16" wide. The remainder of the sides have been lapped perfectly flat. I sharpened and honed the blade, and started making shavings on a small Sapele lamination. After tweaking the depth and lateral adjustments a bit, I was able to get some very thin shavings...thinner than tissue paper, but not quite "feather-light", though they were rather "puffy". Anyway, the smoothing on the exposed quartersawn grain is fantastic. It has an almost satin-like sheen to it and it feels just wonderful to the touch and the grain just pops.

So, I have to say, I'm hooked. I have my eye on this Veritas Scraper Plane to follow behind the #4.

This does, however, lead me to another question. What do I use to smooth the end grain? I have a standard Stanley Bailey Block Plane with an adjustable throat, this #4, a #5 and a #6.

[muddlermike]

it's all over now. might as well join PA (planes anonymous). I'm happy to be your sponsor if you like. We have some literature to give to your wife to help explain your affliction if you need it, too.

because end grain flexes under pressure, you need more of a shearing action - which is what the low angle planes are for. Typically, you would use a low angle block plane to trim up end grain.

[protectedvoid]

it's all over now. might as well join PA (planes anonymous). I'm happy to be your sponsor if you like. We have some literature to give to your wife to help explain your affliction if you need it, too.

because end grain flexes under pressure, you need more of a shearing action - which is what the low angle planes are for. Typically, you would use a low angle block plane to trim up end grain.

That's what I thought, but I was kinda hoping you wouldn't say that.

Can I assume that any low angle plane will suffice? Or is there something particular about a low-angle block plane that makes it superior?

[muddlermike]

no, any low angle/bevel up plane would do, but since end grain is typically a small area compared to the rest of a board most find a block works fine. You can use a larger low angle plane in a shooting board - in fact I would suggest it to square up and smooth out end grain

[protectedvoid]

no, any low angle/bevel up plane would do, but since end grain is typically a small area compared to the rest of a board most find a block works fine. You can use a larger low angle plane in a shooting board - in fact I would suggest it to square up and smooth out end grain

The shooting board application was specifically what I had in mind. I'm integrating a shooting board into my work bench for squaring the stock, as well as smoothing / edge jointing. I have a standard block plane at the moment, but I thought about going with the Veritas LA Block Plane, with the optional knob and tote "retrofit". Combined, I believe it's roughly $40 cheaper than the LA Jack Plane. - But then, I suppose I could drop the extra $40.

Man, decisions, decisions. I really want to get that Scraper plane first, though.

[muddlermike]

oh yeah, you're toast. It's all over. Might as well take out a second mortgage...

[protectedvoid]

oh yeah, you're toast. It's all over. Might as well take out a second mortgage...

Better go ahead and direct me to that support group you mentioned, as well as the literature for my wife.

[PaulMarcel]

I think it is safe to say "PA" never really worked for Muddler... in fact I'm convinced he goes there to "help" the suffering souls by taking excess plane merchandise off them. On forum 1.0, all of Mike's posts started with "Hi, my name is Mike and it has been 36 hours since I last bought a plane, that is, until this afternoon when..."

Remember that the Internets are like ex-girlfriends: both will constantly remind you of your weak moments

[protectedvoid]

I think it is safe to say "PA" never really worked for Muddler... in fact I'm convinced he goes there to "help" the suffering souls by taking excess plane merchandise off them. On forum 1.0, all of Mike's posts started with "Hi, my name is Mike and it has been 36 hours since I last bought a plane, that is, until this afternoon when..."

Remember that the Internets are like ex-girlfriends: both will constantly remind you of your weak moments

LOL...I suspected as much. Really, though, the first thing I need to do is sit down and plane...er I mean plan out which planes I really need. I really enjoy my antique planes, and I may try finding an antique scraper plane if anyone cares to make a recommendation on such. More than likely though, my first *new* plane will probably be that LA Jack from Veritas. Of all the LA Bevel-Up planes, the Jack plane just seems to be the most versatile.

So...anyone care to make a recommendation on which antique scraper planes to keep an eye out for on ebay?

[muddlermike]

it would be cheaper to buy a new Veritas scraper plane than try to win a Stanley #112 that is was based on. Like the Stanley low angle planes that Veritas and Lie Nielson based their low angle planes on, they fetch a pretty penny on ebay. The Stanley #12 veneer scraper doesn't have the following that the #112 has, because it was a little harder to work with from what I hear. There aren't too many other scraper planes on the market past or present. Veritas also has a scraper insert for standard bench planes that looks promising - I was putting it on the Christmas list this year, in fact.

[protectedvoid]

it would be cheaper to buy a new Veritas scraper plane than try to win a Stanley #112 that is was based on. Like the Stanley low angle planes that Veritas and Lie Nielson based their low angle planes on, they fetch a pretty penny on ebay. The Stanley #12 veneer scraper doesn't have the following that the #112 has, because it was a little harder to work with from what I hear. There aren't too many other scraper planes on the market past or present. Veritas also has a scraper insert for standard bench planes that looks promising - I was putting it on the Christmas list this year, in fact.

Interesting. I don't remember seeing that in their catalog. And, you're right about the scraper planes on ebay -- they're all kind of pricey. If I'm going to spend $100, I'll just kick out the extra $69, you know. Does Lee Valley ever run sales on the Veritas planes closer to Christmas?

[wilburpan]

Interesting. I don't remember seeing that in their catalog. And, you're right about the scraper planes on ebay -- they're all kind of pricey. If I'm going to spend $100, I'll just kick out the extra $69, you know. Does Lee Valley ever run sales on the Veritas planes closer to Christmas?

With Lee Valley, the price you see is pretty much the price you get. Which is great: I'd rather have known pricing than to have to wait around for a sale.

However, right now they are offering free shipping on anything you get until 9/27.

[protectedvoid]

With Lee Valley, the price you see is pretty much the price you get. Which is great: I'd rather have known pricing than to have to wait around for a sale.

However, right now they are offering free shipping on anything you get until 9/27.

Yep...I took advantage of the free shipping offer. As for pricing, I don't mind checking for sales. It's good that their prices are *stable* most of the time, but having a sale from time to time on those specialty planes certainly wouldn't hurt matters.

[muddlermike]

here's the scraper insert: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,310&p=32635

[protectedvoid]

here's the scraper insert: http://www.leevalley...t=1,310&p=32635

Cool...thanks for the link. Next paycheck.

You're such a bad influence...