Gamble Bed Cloud Lift Question

[Guest Mahoganus]

Well I was going to post what should go on the top edge of the cloud lifts on the Greene and Greene Gamble Bed, but I think I have found the answer.

[Bobby Slack]

Hey you went to the master of Greene and Greene's website. Personally I think that you can use a rasp and round that edge a little bit. I am sure Darrell will get you in the right direction. He is great about replying emails.

[thewoodwhisperer]

I have actually seen it done both ways. Sometimes its a soft 45 degree cut and other times its more of a rounded-over 90. But when I look at various original G&G pieces, it looks like the soft 45 is more common.

[iSawitFirst]

I think the soft 45 is more pleasing to the eye. Abrupt changes confuse the Chi.

Gorgeous wood for a gorgeous bed!

[Onboard]

Below is a quote from Robert W. Lang's book "Shop drawings for Greene & Greene furniture". To me, the steps of a "cloud lift" look like a stretched out "S" shape. Like others have said sort of a "soft 45 degree" slope with the inner and outer transitions rounded. Reading the quote below does show that it is a variable however. I'm sure you've also noted that the corners formed by the meeting of the sides and top is rounded as well, albeit a small radius to soften the corner. Probably done by hand rather than looking like someone took a router bit to it. Just my half penny's worth.

“The other important Oriental element is the “cloud lift”, reversing curves that form a step in long horizontal lines. In each house, these have a slightly different shape and form. I some cases, the lines aren’t actually straight, but are very subtle arcs, and occasionally the lines leading into the lifts are not horizontal, but at a slight angle. The “typical’ Green and Green cloud lift will only be typical to a particular house or room.“

[mlingenfelter]

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule for this. I think 45 isn't a "gentle" enough transition. I choose to knock a couple degrees off of 45, for a shallower slope, for the G&G chairs I'm making. I've seen some that were around 30 degrees, that looked nice. It's really a matter taste.

Mike

[Gregory Paolini]

There's really no prescribed angle for the clooud lift transitions - They vary from a hard 90 degrees, to a very lazy 25-30 degree. In most of my work, I stick to around 45 degrees, just because I like the look of it.

-gp

[thewoodwhisperer]

I went to the Gamble House last year. It was an amazing experience that literally changed the way I look at woodworking and influence me in ways I can't even describe. Not bad for the price of admission.

[iSawitFirst]

I studied The Bro's architecture in college and fell in love with it. The thought of designing such elegant details that demand exceptional skill and experience to execute was presented as a pinnacle of design and something all architects should espouse to do. Unfortunately, these days there are far too few craftsmen or even true carpenters who could even attempt this. In fact, most "carpenters" don't even own their own tools.

Many architects and furniture designers have adapted the concept of "celebrating the joint" to steel, aluminum, fabric and even concrete (not to mention cannabis). Odly, those considered to be the best are those who know how to get great results with unskilled labor.

[Bob Lang]

The best thing to do is to look at as many different images of original pieces as you can. David Mathias' new book is full of details that haven't been published before. After that, draw something that looks pleasing to you. One of the subtleties of this stuff is that the edges are also radiused, and the radius varies along the edge. This has a big effect on the appearance of the lift. There is no magic formula, and there is no router bit that will form an authentic edge.

I believe that's why we call it art.

Bob Lang

[Bobby Slack]

If you invest on a trip, call the Gamble house and find when is the "joinery tour" because that is the trip you will enjoy as a craftsman. The regular trip is great but will not give you the answers you are looking for. I am telling you this from experience.

Thanks a lot everyone for the great feed back! I keep going back and looking at other Greene and Greene work and have noticed like you guys say the Brothers used a variety of cloud lifts, but for the Gamble Bed Im going to do like ya all say,, a soft angle followed up with a nice radius.

Onboard Great info too about the large arcs, I thought I was seeing that in the picture but was unsure as well, thought maybe thats just the way it looked in the picture. Someday I will have to make a trip to Califorina and check out the Brothers work in person.

The more I keep working on this bed the more and more questions keep coming to my head ,, "How did G&G and the Hall's do that back in the early 1900's" Wish they had a youtube channel lol.

[Bobby Slack]

Another perspective. The cloud lift needs to be noticed but is not required to be toooooooo important. Probably 30 degrees is not noticed that much and 90 degrees is too abrupt. Probably 45 degrees is the right balance. Hmmm thanks for making me think about this.

[Guest Mahoganus]

I went to the Gamble House last year. It was an amazing experience that literally changed the way I look at woodworking and influence me in ways I can't even describe. Not bad for the price of admission.

Man thats awesome and amazing,, Im sure it will change me too,, the books alone have changed a lot of the ways I wood work. No not bad at all

[Guest Mahoganus]

Gorgeous wood for a gorgeous bed!

Thanks,, its the first time for me building anything out of 1/4 sawn white oak.

[Guest Mahoganus]

I studied The Bro's architecture in college and fell in love with it. The thought of designing such elegant details that demand exceptional skill and experience to execute was presented as a pinnacle of design and something all architects should espouse to do. Unfortunately, these days there are far too few craftsmen or even true carpenters who could even attempt this. In fact, most "carpenters" don't even own their own tools.

Many architects and furniture designers have adapted the concept of "celebrating the joint" to steel, aluminum, fabric and even concrete (not to mention cannabis). Odly, those considered to be the best are those who know how to get great results with unskilled labor.

aint that the truth

[Guest Mahoganus]

If you invest on a trip, call the Gamble house and find when is the "joinery tour" because that is the trip you will enjoy as a craftsman. The regular trip is great but will not give you the answers you are looking for. I am telling you this from experience.

Thanks for the great information! Someday I will be there.

[iSawitFirst]

Sweet! I wondered how you were going to do that.

You just can't beat having the right tools for the job.

[Bobby Slack]

Nicely done. If you want to make this look less perfect and organic, follow the milling with a rasp. Bob Lang talks about the Greene and Greene edges in his book. Also Darrell Peart is another fantastic source.

I planned to use a router for the edges and follow it with hand tools when I get to do my Greene and Greene coffee table.

Thank you for this great video.

Here is what I end up using and what it looks like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgATTGd43P0

Thanks again everyone for the great feed back

[darrellpeart]

The best thing to do is to look at as many different images of original pieces as you can. David Mathias' new book is full of details that haven't been published before. After that, draw something that looks pleasing to you. One of the subtleties of this stuff is that the edges are also radiused, and the radius varies along the edge. This has a big effect on the appearance of the lift. There is no magic formula, and there is no router bit that will form an authentic edge.

I believe that's why we call it art.

Bob Lang

I agree with Bob - there is no magic formula. I would suggest looking at a lot of the original G&G cloud lifts - just soak them in for a while. Then simply draw what looks good - learn to rely upon your intuition - I feel formulas and numbers may be helpful in the beginning , but in the long run they tend to inhibit a good design.

I am actually in the midst of a run of three Gamble Bed - I will attach the drawing for the standard kind versoin

[darrellpeart]

Thank you for your great information. Very nice drawing, wow 3 beds, all mahogany and ebony, would love to see your wood stash (It would be like second heaven) It sure is funny how once you have built a piece of furniture how you can notice different elements once its completed.

My bed is a king size as well and when designing everything to compensate for the larger size was somewhat challenging for me. I noticed in your drawing you have 2 spindles for each cloud lift that was something I had a hard time deciding, I went with 3 spindles for each lift. I also upped the sizes on almost everything to compensate the longer spans compared to Robert Lang's dimensions. I should have drew it up on CAD but for one bed I didnt think it was worth it. I sure would like to see a more detailed drawings of your king size bed to compare to see if I was even close to what you are building,, would be cool, especially like the really nice drawings I bought of your nightstand which I will be building next. I love those huge and very detailed blue prints like that.

I got question for ya, and I hope I didnt read over this,, but do you use African Mahogany or Genuine Mahogany or some other type of Mahogany? Im done with this white oak,, never again unless for a exterior door.

I have been using ( ribbon cut) African Mahogany for several years now - I had previously used Honduras Mahogany but here in Seattle the price went up and the quality went down ( bad combination). The African Mahogany has a couple of bad habits but I still think in general it is easier to work than many woods - sometimes you will find faint stress fractures - when stain is applied they are not nearly so faint - when I find a board with these it gets relegated to glue blocks.

The other problem is occasional interlocking gran - tear-out becomes a problem. In my case I have a wide-belt sander so I can just leave a little extra thickness when sanding and clean it up.