Denatured Alcohol in Canada

[mlehikoinen]

Going to my local borgs, every one of them tells me that methyl hydrate is what I want when I ask for Denatured Alcohol. I'm not so sure though after doing a little searching on the properties, DNA is made from ethanol, while methyl hydrate is a methanol based product.

Lee Valley has a 1L can of thinner for $13.50, but that seems rather steep when you can get a 4L jug of Methal Hydrate for the same or cheaper!

Thoughts on what you would use to thin your Shellac when you can't find DNA? Does it make a difference which alcohol you use (from those listed above, I'm not about to stoop to vodka! )

Edit - Actually, there was one more thought I heard about ... Isopropyl alcohol ... let's add that to the mix for fun

[DaBear]

MH is your friend. It works well, and has a very low water content.. And is cheap From my reading, any sufficiently 'pure' alcohol will work for shellac.. I've used both the LV product and plain old MH, and so far, found no real difference..

Rubbing alcohol should not be used as it has too much water and will adversely affect the shellac (supposedly).... Never used it, but then, no reason to with MH available..

My 2 cents..

David

[AceHoleInOne]

I have heard that too about rubbing alcohol...but I have read that guys use it to slow the dry of shellac, like a retarder. Never tried it so I cant say. Alcohol and water chemical properties somehow completely mix together and won't separate. I guess the question is just how much water is a bad thing. I would think the more pure the alcohol, the hotter it would be and your shellac would dry super fast.

-Ace-

[Jim DaddyO]

I used Methyl Hydrate, works well, is cheap, and I can get it in Canada.

[Lucas]

I stay away from methyl hydrate for health concerns... Methanol is much more toxic than denatured alcohol with does have about 10% methanol content to prevent people from drinking it.

You can use isopropyl alcohol as long as it's a high concentration (i.e. 99%), which contains very little water. As for myself, I simply pick up a gallon when I cross the border. Since I don't use shellac everyday, it lasts me for a while.

Personally, I would stay away from methyl hydrate... they shouldn't be selling it in stores!!

[mlehikoinen]

I had heard that about methyl hydrate. But DNA has some of the same warnings. In either case I would be using gloves and goggles and an open garage door.

Thanks for the feedback so far!

Marc, you have more background in this field (weren't you a chemist?). I would love to hear your thoughts.

[Glewis]

Methyl Alcohol is really nasty dangerous stuff. Don't use it. Ethyl Alcohol is the stuff from the LCBO and I would like to think it's good for you. To avoid taxation for industrial use, in Canada they make it undrinkable (denatured) by adding a little methanol. You can get it from chemical supply houses or as I do, from John E. Goudey Mfg. here in Toronto. See WWW.Goudeymfg.com . You can also use almost pure isopropyl alcohol from your local pharmacy (behind the counter) as a substitute. I have found that Goudey Mfg. is a very good source for many different kinds of shellac flakes also, as well as providing superb professional advice on all kinds of colouring and finishing. They sell retail and are very friendly to visit. I hope this helps. Cheers.

[flairwoodworks]

Considering all the warnings to stay away from methyl alcohol, I can't help but think about the toxicity of lacquer thinner...

I use methyl hydrate.

[TBaiga]

OK you shop chemists...please read the WIKI on methanol. I direct you to the section on toxicity. It's much safer to use denatured alcohol, which is primarily ethanol that is spiked (or denatured, ass from drinking) with ~10% methanol plus other additives which varies from vendor to vendor. Reagent ethanol generally is 90% ethanol, 5% methanol and 5% isopropanol.

some important physical properties

Boiling point Vapor density (vs. air) Flash point

DNA 78C 1.59 57.2F (14C)

Methyl hydrate 64.7C 1.11 51.8F (11C)

Rubbing alcohol 82C 2.10 53.6F (12C)

rubbing alcohol evaporates the slowest which is why is retards shellac drying. But note that the vapors are twice as heavy as air and it's flash point is 12C. DNA has a median boiling point and density, but the highest flash point at 14C. methyl hydrate evaporates the fastest, lightest vapors and flashes at the lowest temperature. the lightest vapors mix in the air the fastest and can flash easiest as well as be inhaled more rapidly. btw, unless you have chemical cartridges, a respirator isn't going to scrub out the fumes.

i hope this is useful info - and yes i'm a chemist (25 years and counting...)lol!

[flairwoodworks]

Hi Tom,

I've never considered methanol. Any ideas where I would start looking for it, and is it sold in a can labeled "mehtanol"?

[TBaiga]

Hi Flair,

Methyl hydrate = methanol = methyl alcohol as well as a few other names. Chemicals have systematic names by convention (IUPAC), but many also common names and trade names too. Of the 3 alcohol solvents I described, this is the one I'd least recommend you use.

I once had a co-worker pouring from a 20L drum into a more manageable 4L bottom is a fume hood, taking all the appropriate safety precautions (gloves, goggles, lab coat, etc.). He overfilled by a small amount and set the can down in the hood and began to lower the sash so the vapor would evaporate faster. But in doing so there was a small spark from one of the stirring devices and the methanol flashed. The initial 'pop' knocked over the bottle and he was splashed a caught fire. The flames are quite invisible, and the the person starts to hop around like they are doing the "Safety Dance". No major injury other than a sunburn and some manscaping, but if that had happened in an uncontrolled area, we would have lost the entire lab.

Which ever solvent you use, be sure there's good ventilation, and no heat or spark sources nearby. If I had to decant methanol at home, I'd be doing it outside on the driveway.