45 degree joint

[woodtinkerer]

hello,

this is my first post in the forum. I have been watching Marc's videos and been listening to WTO radio for the past couple of weeks.

I have a basic question that is probably a really newbie question but i seem to have a problem with it.

I am trying to create a base for a box, which is basically 4 boards put together in a rectangle. But on the front i want the front board and side boards to meet at 90 degree corner but i want each board to have a 45 degree cut or chamfer on each so when they come together you see a nice corner and dont see any end grain from any of the boards. But no matter how i cut the boards whether it is on the table saw or a power miter saw when i put the two pieces together they don't come out to a 90 degree joint, it is usually off by just a little. I have tried using the adjustable combo square and even bought a standard gauge to put on the blade to measure the angle, although its not digital so i am sure there is some error in it. My question is does anyone have a tips on how to get the angle cuts more accurate or to adjust them once i put the boards together.

Thanks

[Frank Speyerer]

You could try a 45º chamfer bit.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/routing/chamfer-bits/

[woodtinkerer]

You could try a 45º chamfer bit.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/routing/chamfer-bits/

I thought about that too but the bit I have doesnt seem to be tall enough for the half inch stock i am using. Short of buying a new bit and a new router as the current router i have only accepts 1/4" shanks. But if thats my only option I might have to buy another router for my next tool.

[Beechwood Chip]

I recommend making lots of test cuts. Take some scrap wood that is absolutely straight and cut your 45, then put the two pieces together to form a 90 and compare with a known good square. Then adjust the angle of your blade by less than a hair, and repeat until you are satisfied with the results. Then start cutting your "real" pieces.

Cut your pieces long, and then dry-fit. mark a point closer to the "correct" length but still long, cut there, and dry-fit again. Repeat until you are satisfied with the fit. Remember, you can always cut off a little more, but if it's too short, you have to start over. This is called "creeping up" on the cut.

[PaulMarcel]

How big is the base? Sounds like the material is fairly thick since a regular chamfer bit won't cut it all. The following idea will work well if the pieces are large enough to process safely at the saw. A tenoning jig (purchased, made, 1-off, or equivalent) will help (necessary?)

I'll assume the side are shorter than the front/back. (If not, reverse my references below though I'll always state the lengths)

Set the saw bevel to 45º as accurately as you can. Don't lose sleep over it.

Use the miter gauge to cut the bevels on the two ends of the shorter side pieces. Be sure the inside edge of the bevel exactly lines up with the corner of the box or you'll have a gap later.

Don't move the blade.

Use the tenoning jig to run the longer front/back through the blade. You'll do this by running the board vertically. If the fence of the jig is 90º to the table, the resulting joint will be 90º even if the bevel isn't exactly 45º. DON'T try this by running the board along the fence by hand; you need the jig to hold the board and run it through. There's a 100 1-off ways to make this tenoning jig and all will keep your hands away from the lovely blade.

[woodtinkerer]

thanks to all that has replied

I recommend making lots of test cuts. Take some scrap wood that is absolutely straight and cut your 45, then put the two pieces together to form a 90 and compare with a known good square. Then adjust the angle of your blade by less than a hair, and repeat until you are satisfied with the results. Then start cutting your "real" pieces.

Cut your pieces long, and then dry-fit. mark a point closer to the "correct" length but still long, cut there, and dry-fit again. Repeat until you are satisfied with the fit. Remember, you can always cut off a little more, but if it's too short, you have to start over. This is called "creeping up" on the cut.

I will have to try this tip, i wasn't sure how well i could adjust the angle at each interval, my table saw angle adjustment isnt very accurate.

How big is the base? Sounds like the material is fairly thick since a regular chamfer bit won't cut it all. The following idea will work well if the pieces are large enough to process safely at the saw. A tenoning jig (purchased, made, 1-off, or equivalent) will help (necessary?)

I'll assume the side are shorter than the front/back. (If not, reverse my references below though I'll always state the lengths)

Set the saw bevel to 45º as accurately as you can. Don't lose sleep over it.

Use the miter gauge to cut the bevels on the two ends of the shorter side pieces. Be sure the inside edge of the bevel exactly lines up with the corner of the box or you'll have a gap later.

Don't move the blade.

Use the tenoning jig to run the longer front/back through the blade. You'll do this by running the board vertically. If the fence of the jig is 90º to the table, the resulting joint will be 90º even if the bevel isn't exactly 45º. DON'T try this by running the board along the fence by hand; you need the jig to hold the board and run it through. There's a 100 1-off ways to make this tenoning jig and all will keep your hands away from the lovely blade.

This sounds very interesting, i would like to try this. The base is not very big, i think 6" by 8" maybe, it is on a jewelry box. My problem is i have a craftsman table saw and i have had problems getting anything for the miter slots it has. They are not just a standard rectangle but are more like a upside down T. I cant even find a zero clearance insert for it. This sounds like a fool proof was to get a 90deg corner but not sure how to get it to work on my non-standard table saw.

[TonyV]

Are you saying that you're trying to miter the ends to make the joints? That is, you're cutting the ends of the boards at a 45 degree angle like a picture frame?

If so, that's one of those things in woodworking that looks like it should be simple but is harder than it looks. Before you can make a mitered frame perfectly square, there are a few things you have to know:

1. Ensure that the parts that will be parallel in the final assembly are the same length. No matter how accurately you cut a 45 degree miter, your frame will never be square if these parts aren't the same length.

2. Unless you have tuned & calibrated the saw / miter gauge / whatever recently, don't trust it when it tells you that the angle is 45 degrees. You need to calibrate everything & verify it's producing correct results.

Calibrating a saw or miter gauge involves makeing lots of test cuts, measuring each test cut, & making adjustments as necessary to get the angle you want. This means you're going to use a lot of scraps & make them smaller. There's no way around it.

Lots of folks get it close & then add post-its to their fence as shims to bring the cut into perfect alignment.

Make sure you read the instructions for your miter saw or table saw miter gauge before you start playing with the adjustment mechanisms.

[Eli]

Do you have a hand plane?

[woodtinkerer]

Are you saying that you're trying to miter the ends to make the joints? That is, you're cutting the ends of the boards at a 45 degree angle like a picture frame?

If so, that's one of those things in woodworking that looks like it should be simple but is harder than it looks. Before you can make a mitered frame perfectly square, there are a few things you have to know:

1. Ensure that the parts that will be parallel in the final assembly are the same length. No matter how accurately you cut a 45 degree miter, your frame will never be square if these parts aren't the same length.

2. Unless you have tuned & calibrated the saw / miter gauge / whatever recently, don't trust it when it tells you that the angle is 45 degrees. You need to calibrate everything & verify it's producing correct results.

Calibrating a saw or miter gauge involves makeing lots of test cuts, measuring each test cut, & making adjustments as necessary to get the angle you want. This means you're going to use a lot of scraps & make them smaller. There's no way around it.

Lots of folks get it close & then add post-its to their fence as shims to bring the cut into perfect alignment.

Make sure you read the instructions for your miter saw or table saw miter gauge before you start playing with the adjustment mechanisms.

sorta, the pieces are a base for a small box. The front piece is maybe 10 inches long by 2 inches tall by 3/4 inch thick, the side pieces is 6 inches long and same height and thickness. I am trying to get the two pieces to come together at a 90 degree corner where the thickness will be glued together.

I try to get the length of everything to match as close as i can but whenever i make the angle cut it seems to go wrong. I know nothing is calibrated perfectly but it even seems the blade flexes or whatever alittle, i see it more on my miter saw. So i am not sure just how much error there is built into the machine.

Do you have a hand plane?

I have a really really cheap menards one that is cheaply made. I am looking into getting a better one but i still dont know how to use a hand plane fully. Like how far out the bottom the blade is suppose to stick out.

[TonyV]

If your miter saw blade is flexing, nothing you do to calibrate the fence is going to make much of a difference. The flex will drive you off the angle you want.

Assuming the blade in your table saw doesn't flex, there's a jig you can make for your table saw called a miter sled. This is a piece of 3/4" plywood for a base with runners that ride in both miter slots. You cut a block into a perfect 45 degree right triangle -- you want one perfect 90 degree 90 degree corner is right on the kerf. You then attach fences to the block to support stock taller than the block is thick.

What this does for you is take all the pain out of cutting miters. You use it by putting one piece of stock for a corner on one of the angled fences; you make your cut. Then you put the stock for the other side of the same corner on the other fence. If the corner where the two fence meet is truly 90 degrees, it won't matter if one of the cuts isn't a perfect 45 degrees; the other cut will be the compliment of the first cut. The two will always add up to 90 degrees.

Do a search for "miter sled" for examples of making one.

Tony

[flairwoodworks]

If you are using a miter saw, you can tweak the angle by inserting a shim between the fence and the stock at either end of the workpiece. Use something thin like a business card. You could do the same thing with a miter gauge on the table saw. By the way, your table saw has T-slots, which are common on most table saws made nowadays. And I second the recommendation of a miter sled for your table saw.

[Roger T]

If you are using a miter saw, you can tweak the angle by inserting a shim between the fence and the stock at either end of the workpiece. Use something thin like a business card. You could do the same thing with a miter gauge on the table saw. By the way, your table saw has T-slots, which are common on most table saws made nowadays. And I second the recommendation of a miter sled for your table saw.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To_Power/POWER_INDEX_How_To.htm

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm

The guys have thrown a lot of info at you trying to get you headed in the right direction. Have a look at the above links, lots of good information in there. One other piece of advise, after you make your initial cuts on one end of each piece. Use a stop block screwed down to butt the freshly cut ends into. This insures that each of the pieces you cut will be the same length. You will have to make a sled for your table saw, or fab up something to work with your mitre saw. Another thing, when using your mitre saw, dont cut right to the mark on the first cut, just sneak up on it, I sometimes make multiple cuts when working, with the final cut being 1/32 or less. This will help with blade flex quite a bit.

Roger

[jHop]

Assuming the blade in your table saw doesn't flex, there's a jig you can make for your table saw called a miter sled. This is a piece of 3/4" plywood for a base with runners that ride in both miter slots. You cut a block into a perfect 45 degree right triangle -- you want one perfect 90 degree 90 degree corner is right on the kerf. You then attach fences to the block to support stock taller than the block is thick.

Or get a plastic drafting square, and affix that to the sled.

(quick Google search turned this up. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5px9OlmbLLvvhM:http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m186/RokJok/woodwork/miter_sled_drafting_triangle.jpg&t=1 )

[kesac]

hello,

this is my first post in the forum. I have been watching Marc's videos and been listening to WTO radio for the past couple of weeks.

I have a basic question that is probably a really newbie question but i seem to have a problem with it.

I am trying to create a base for a box, which is basically 4 boards put together in a rectangle. But on the front i want the front board and side boards to meet at 90 degree corner but i want each board to have a 45 degree cut or chamfer on each so when they come together you see a nice corner and dont see any end grain from any of the boards. But no matter how i cut the boards whether it is on the table saw or a power miter saw when i put the two pieces together they don't come out to a 90 degree joint, it is usually off by just a little. I have tried using the adjustable combo square and even bought a standard gauge to put on the blade to measure the angle, although its not digital so i am sure there is some error in it. My question is does anyone have a tips on how to get the angle cuts more accurate or to adjust them once i put the boards together.

Thanks

[kesac]

You can also shim your cut on your miter saw, to take out the error you are getting on each cut. Lots of trim guys do that on miters. As far as your measuring equiptment being accurate enough, the digital ones are some improvement, but you can get better results than that with the shimming and a bit of practice.

I use playing cards or pieces of tape, or what ever.

Play with some practice pieces, and the light will come right on after a few minutes.

[nateswoodworks]

The first thing is to understand that it is never like you see Norm do, making a perfect miter is not just a one cut thing, like it was said many sample cuts are needed. I remember going bonkers when I was first starting because I always thought I was just doing something wrong. The other thing is make sure your stock is flat and parallel because if it isn't that's just going to add to the problems. Like Paul said if you cut one half of the joint with your stock flat to the table and the other half 90 degrees to that with a tennoning jig it really doesn't matter of the angle is 44 or 46 degrees because its going to match up when you add them up it's still going to equal 90 degrees, just practice and use sample blocks. As for the router bit, I have a Freud that will cut 3/4 stock but it is a 1/2 shank, it is an awesome bit for wide panels when it is easier to bring the tool to the work. I think with a little practice and knowing it's not just you it will be just fine. Good luck

Nate