Beginning a Greene & Greene Cabinet Design Project

[Chester]

I am going to tackle the design of a Greene & Greene style cabinet (SketchUP) for our living room (at the 1st Mate's request). This will be a "behind the couch" type table/cabinet ... long and fairly narrow. It will be at approximately the height of the back of the couch and will have 3-4 cabinet doors facing out. The cabinets will have shelving for the storage of China and crystal. We do not have a wall for a real china cabinet.

Have not yet decided whether any of the cabinet doors will have glass. I know that G&G often uses leaded glass and have seen some fascinating examples. I have also made a new friend that does leaded glass ... so, we will have to see on that.

The real question is do I have what it takes to do this design, being so new to awareness of the G&G style? One central theme of G&G is all of the exposed joinery. I have always liked exposed joinery. It has been recommended to me to get the book 'Poems of Wood & Light' by Matthias. Seeing what G&G looks like, however, does not necessarily tell me how they are put together. I will keep you posted as I learn more.

Please do not hesitate to comment because I know next to nothing ... except that I really like what I have seen.

[Onboard]

The real question is do I have what it takes to do this design, being so new to awareness of the G&G style? One central theme of G&G is all of the exposed joinery. I have always liked exposed joinery. It has been recommended to me to get the book 'Poems of Wood & Light' by Matthias. Seeing what G&G looks like, however, does not necessarily tell me how they are put together. I will keep you posted as I learn more.

Please do not hesitate to comment because I know next to nothing ... except that I really like what I have seen.

Chester, I think you’ll get quite a few replies on your post. I can offer a little bit with the following resources. I’m sure many more will follow from others.

Greene & Greene furniture details article.

Darrel Peart’s book on Greene & Greene furniture.

Bob Lang’s book on Greene & Greene shop drawings he’s created (not step by step construction plans).

Square hole cutter for ebony plugs.

[Pete Bennett]

Be good to see some shots of your design so far then maybe the ones out there who know far more than I about Greene & Greene will know how to point you. I know of the names and I guess they are the American equivalent to Morris, Web, Mackintosh etc. of our Arts & Crafts movement, is that right guys?

[Chester]

Be good to see some shots of your design so far then maybe the ones out there who know far more than I about Greene & Greene will know how to point you. I know of the names and I guess they are the American equivalent to Morris, Web, Mackintosh etc. of our Arts & Crafts movement, is that right guys?

I did this in SketchUP ... just to give a general schematic of what I am thinking about. Obviously, a great deal more is needed before this could be called Greene & Greene style.

[Bobby Slack]

Chester, Onboard listed all the sources I was going to. So the only thing to add is to understand the "language" of the design. That is a real tough concept to explain. Sometimes adding G&G elements do not mean that your piece "is" G&G.

Darrel Peart also has a Greene and Greene blog where you can ask questions posting your design. David Mathias is a frequent collaborator at the blog and people will give you their opinion.

Chester, I think you’ll get quite a few replies on your post. I can offer a little bit with the following resources. I’m sure many more will follow from others.

Greene & Greene furniture details article.

Darrel Peart’s book on Greene & Greene furniture.

Bob Lang’s book on Greene & Greene shop drawings he’s created (not step by step construction plans).

Square hole cutter for ebony plugs.

[Chester]

Chester, Onboard listed all the sources I was going to. So the only thing to add is to understand the "language" of the design. That is a real tough concept to explain. Sometimes adding G&G elements do not mean that your piece "is" G&G.

Darrel Peart also has a Greene and Greene blog where you can ask questions posting your design. David Mathias is a frequent collaborator at the blog and people will give you their opinion.

Bobby -

Thanks. I took a minute to glance at Darrell's blog and I will look at it some more tonight (I do my best work in my jammies with my laptop in bed ... don't tell the 1st Mate ).

Going to Border's this afternoon. They have some of these books in the store. I need to look at them to see what I really need. It seems like I need to become familiar with some of the design components and how to make them ... in order to incorporate them into this basic plan for a cabinet.

[Bobby Slack]

Chester,

Purchasing these books, you will be surprised the deals you get on Amazon. Probably somebody has them available used for very little money.

Glad to help and give back to the community.

There is another book that you can find used in Amazon and explains the "language" Greene and Greene Furniture and Related Designs by Randell L. Makinson. I got it for about 10 bucks.

One of the things I like to do is to get "in their head" and understand why these guys used the type of joinery, proportions, details and accents by understanding ... them. Them is the Greene brothers and the Hall brothers.

I have no idea how deep you want to go into this.

The Greene and Greene style hit me hardest than any other design school out there.

Good luck with your investments in books.

Bobby Slack

Bobby -

Thanks. I took a minute to glance at Darrell's blog and I will look at it some more tonight (I do my best work in my jammies with my laptop in bed ... don't tell the 1st Mate ).

Going to Border's this afternoon. They have some of these books in the store. I need to look at them to see what I really need. It seems like I need to become familiar with some of the design components and how to make them ... in order to incorporate them into this basic plan for a cabinet.

[Chester]

I spent a half-hour or so yesterday afternoon at Border's leafing through the 'Poems of Wood & Light' by Mathias. It is a beautiful book.

As a woodworker, I look at the G&G elements and immediately ask myself "how would I do that?" There are more resources available for the "how to" and I am looking at them every day. But, am I kidding myself to think that I can really design a representative G&G piece without going to a class ... or something?

I know that the Spag-man went to a week long class just to build a small end table.

[darrellpeart]

Hi Chester,

G&G can be a bit overwhelming at first - so many details to incorporate.

Be cautious in the use of G&G details - for something so simple as a cloud -lift for example - its so easy to overdo it or misuse it.

That said - I encourage you to look at a lot of photos then draw and redraw until it feels right.

I have a new article out in Woodwork Magazine this month which dissects a classic G&G design - might be of some help.

Another wonderful resource for learning more about G&G is the online archives.

http://www.usc.edu/d...reeneandgreene/

Here you can search through archival documents and photos as well as many contemporary photos -

the photo zoom feature is very cool - you can get in extremely close!

Also check out the virtual tour at the Gamble House !

http://www.gamblehou...tual/index.html

Good luck -

Darrell

[Chester]

I spent a half-hour or so yesterday afternoon at Border's leafing through the 'Poems of Wood & Light' by Mathias. It is a beautiful book.

As a woodworker, I look at the G&G elements and immediately ask myself "how would I do that?" There are more resources available for the "how to" and I am looking at them every day. But, am I kidding myself to think that I can really design a representative G&G piece without going to a class ... or something?

I know that the Spag-man went to a week long class just to build a small end table.

Darrell -

Thanks much for this response. I am very familiar with your work and a big fan. Your Aurora Desk alone gives me lots of ideas (and, Oh yes ... I want one ). I think (maybe) what I am getting at is ... I can see how these pieces look but how are they constructed?

For example, the breadboard ends on a table top ... are they attached in such a way as to allow for movement?? ... Obviously they are but if some idiot started to lean too hard or partially sit on the end of one of these, would the breadboard end crack-off ... causing further damage to the larger top piece?

Maybe this question ties into my lack of appreciation for the long, thin, unsupported table-top extensions often seen in G&G. I believe that this is from the Japanese influence.

Do you ever say, "I know how G&G would design this piece (or part of a piece) but I am going to deviate from that form because I like my way better" ???

[Onboard]

Just curious Chester. Did you have a chance to look through the Darrel Peart and Bob Lang books I posted links to yet? If so, do they get closer to what you are looking for?

Darrell -

Thanks much for this response. I am very familiar with your work and a big fan. Your Aurora Desk alone gives me lots of ideas (and, Oh yes ... I want one ). I think (maybe) what I am getting at is ... I can see how these pieces look but how are they constructed?

For example, the breadboard ends on a table top ... are they attached in such a way as to allow for movement?? ... Obviously they are but if some idiot started to lean too hard or partially sit on the end of one of these, would the breadboard end crack-off ... causing further damage to the larger top piece?

Maybe this question ties into my lack of appreciation for the long, thin, unsupported table-top extensions often seen in G&G. I believe that this is from the Japanese influence.

Do you ever say, "I know how G&G would design this piece (or part of a piece) but I am going to deviate from that form because I like my way better" ???

[Bobby Slack]

The Master showed up. Mr. Darrell Peart! Welcome to this group. I will shut up.

Check out an article on Popular Woodworking this month by Robert Lang and he talks about how to create the soft "organic" edges. You are after imperfection.

Reading Darrell's book I felt a bit overwhelmed on the Greene and Greene "language". Too much is not good ... not enough is not either.

I have been doing a lot of reading before approaching this design idea.

Good luck.

Darrell ... thank you again for stopping by in this group. Love your work.

Too bad I missed your breakfast in Pasadena.

[darrellpeart]

Darrell -

Thanks much for this response. I am very familiar with your work and a big fan. Your Aurora Desk alone gives me lots of ideas (and, Oh yes ... I want one ). I think (maybe) what I am getting at is ... I can see how these pieces look but how are they constructed?

For example, the breadboard ends on a table top ... are they attached in such a way as to allow for movement?? ... Obviously they are but if some idiot started to lean too hard or partially sit on the end of one of these, would the breadboard end crack-off ... causing further damage to the larger top piece?

Maybe this question ties into my lack of appreciation for the long, thin, unsupported table-top extensions often seen in G&G. I believe that this is from the Japanese influence.

Do you ever say, "I know how G&G would design this piece (or part of a piece) but I am going to deviate from that form because I like my way better" ???

Chester,

Yes, the breadboard end allows for movement - not enough space here to

explain it all but it is covered in detail in my book.

I don't think someone leaning on the bb end would break it, but lifting a very heavy piece

up by the breadboards might do so - that's why, when possible, I attach the

top by way of magnets (a trick I learned from my friend Tom Stangeland ) - so when lifted by the breadboard ends the top comes

off.

I often take G&G on tangent - I am not a purist - I like to interject my own ideas.

Darrell

[Beechwood Chip]

someone leaning on the bb end would break it, but lifting a very heavy piece

up by the breadboards might do so - that's why, when possible, I attach the

top by way of magnets (a trick I learned from my friend Tom Stangeland )

Laughed out loud! (and I don't say that often) Brilliant! I love it!

[darrellpeart]

Laughed out loud! (and I don't say that often) Brilliant! I love it!

I was complaining to Tom ( Stangeland) one day about shippers who would pick pieces up by the bb ends only seconds after I asked them not to.

Tom had had the same problem and so he started using magnets.

Its great fun to watch them pick up the top by the bb ends and observe their face as the top separates from the rest of the piece.

[Chester]

Just curious Chester. Did you have a chance to look through the Darrel Peart and Bob Lang books I posted links to yet? If so, do they get closer to what you are looking for?

Onboard -

Yesterday, while at Border's Books, I found only the Mathias book (sorry Darrell). I have been able to look at Darrell's book ... and Bob's book online at Amazon and get a pretty good idea of what they are about. Both appear to be much more about how to achieve these features in the shop (any comment from Darrell would be welcomed here). I just have to figure-out which one is the best for "how to."

I would love to take a week and go for one of Darrell's classes like Marc did ... but I am not retired yet and the week would be a hardship for my business.

[Bobby Slack]

Chester. I would invest on Darrells book, plus Bob's plus Randell L. Makinson "Furniture and Related Designs". Do it online. The reason why you did not find it at the store is why I do everything online.

Onboard -

Yesterday, while at Border's Books, I found only the Mathias book (sorry Darrell). I have been able to look at Darrell's book ... and Bob's book online at Amazon and get a pretty good idea of what they are about. Both appear to be much more about how to achieve these features in the shop (any comment from Darrell would be welcomed here). I just have to figure-out which one is the best for "how to."

I would love to take a week and go for one of Darrell's classes like Marc did ... but I am not retired yet and the week would be a hardship for my business.

[darrellpeart]

Onboard -

Yesterday, while at Border's Books, I found only the Mathias book (sorry Darrell). I have been able to look at Darrell's book ... and Bob's book online at Amazon and get a pretty good idea of what they are about. Both appear to be much more about how to achieve these features in the shop (any comment from Darrell would be welcomed here). I just have to figure-out which one is the best for "how to."

I would love to take a week and go for one of Darrell's classes like Marc did ... but I am not retired yet and the week would be a hardship for my business.

Both my book and Bob's book has how-to sections.

You can order Bob 's book directly from him at:

http://craftsmanplans.com/GreeneAndGreene.htm

You can order my book directly from me at:

http://furnituremaker.com/purchase.htm

I have talked to Marc about doing a video on G&G details - maybe in the not too distant futrure

[Pete Bennett]

Both my book and Bob's book has how-to sections.

You can order Bob 's book directly from him at:

http://craftsmanplans.com/GreeneAndGreene.htm

You can order my book directly from me at:

http://furnituremaker.com/purchase.htm

I have talked to Marc about doing a video on G&G details - maybe in the not too distant futrure

Make it soon please. Their work is comparatively new to me. Most of my knowledge of this period is from Mackintosh and Co. But having trawled the 'Gamble house' site I'm intrigued. Mackintosh's stuff is great but, I was never too keen on Morris.

Pete

[Chester]

Have you seen Darrell's desk?

http://www.furnituremaker.com/Greene_Desk.htm

Is this not great ... or what?

[Onboard]

Have you seen Darrell's desk?

http://www.furnituremaker.com/Greene_Desk.htm

Is this not great ... or what?

Since we are talking about Darrel Peart’s furniture, the one piece that was inspiration to me is his “Aurora Chest of Drawer”.

[Chester]

Since we are talking about Darrel Peart’s furniture, the one piece that was inspiration to me is his “Aurora Chest of Drawer”.

Big ditto's on that one!!! How 'bout the Office Chest

[Pete Bennett]

Have you seen Darrell's desk?

http://www.furnituremaker.com/Greene_Desk.htm

Is this not great ... or what?

How could I not agree??? It's brilliant. When are we going to get the Video Marc?

[Onboard]

Big ditto's on that one!!! How 'bout the Office Chest

That office chest is very nice! Does Darrel make anything that isn’t nice?!

[Wood&Light]

Hi Chester (and everyone else) --

As much as I'd love for you to buy my book, I think that based on what you've written in this thread, Darrell's book is the best bet for you. As you saw when you looked at my book in the store, it is not a howto. I reveal many details that most people haven't seen before but do not offer instruction. Darrell does that and does it very well.

On a related note, I encourage you to buy the book directly from Darrell (and to buy any book directly from the author when possible). WIthout getting into details, the royalty to the author from a book sale via Amazon or the big chains is laughably small. I didn't write my book for a big payday (and I feel confident that Darrell didn't either) but it is nice to be compensated at least somewhat.

Best of luck with your project.

David Mathias

www.wood-and-light.com