Rummaging through the square bin at HD

[Freddie]

I knew for a while that my squares were not sqaure, so I never used them. They sat in my room and collected dust. I cant afford to order an expensive square that claims to be sqaure, only to receive it and its out, I would be ticked off. So I did the poor mans thing. I sharpened a pencil( I mean sharp), put it in my ear, stopped for a 7-11 coffee and headed to home depot. I dropped by the craft board aisle first, and grabbed a cutoff of some poplar, visually inspected for a generally straight edge. I went to the tool aisle, and got on my knee, and started checking every rafter square. All the blue aluminum ones were off. It was crazy to see how off they were and people buy these.After going through about 20 or 30, I found a steel square that,to my eye(Top shooter in my MP company when I was in the army) was perfect. I then went through the empire 6in. combo squares. To be honest, I dont really trust the brand anymore because they are just so mass produced that they are all different. But I reassured myself that seeing is believing, and these 2 squares that I picked were square according to the board test, and standing on a flat surface back to back they lined up flush. does anyone else hang out in the aisles of home depot or lowes like me haha

[Kerry]

I've done that before trying to find a speed square. Took half the day to find one that was reasonably close. I have one of those Empire combo squares as well. Mine is half worthless. It started out square but quickly went out. The machining of the faces was pretty poor as well.

I have come to the conclusion that if you want good quality squares you will have to pay for them. While you will probably never find Starrett tools on sale anywhere you can find them used in very good condition sometimes if you look around. I was able to get 2 Starrett combo square heads, 2 12" blades, an 18" blade, a 24" blade, a 36" blade, 1 protractor/angle head & 1 center finding head for $25 through an auction. These tools were either new (24" blade, 1 Combo head and the center head) or used so little that they could almost pass for new. If you have auctions around where you live that could be a possible source of some good quality stuff, another would be pawn shops. Of course you should make sure the tool(s) are in good shape but you could get some high quality stuff cheap that way. I have gotten 2 Starrett 6" dial calipers and a Mititoyo (I'm sure that's not spelled quite right) 0-1" mic. thanks to a friend who travels all over for his job and he found them in pawnshops. I paid $35 for the 0-1" mic and $20 each for the calipers. Each came from different parts of the US and they work and look like new though the cases sure don't look very new but that would be nitpicking .

You can go to alternative brands as well. I have some tools (4" double square and a 6" rigid steel rule from a company called PEC Tools. You can find them being sold on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_9?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=pec+tools&sprefix=pec+tools through a reseller called Victor Machinerey Exchange http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_9?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=pec+tools&sprefix=pec+tools#/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_25?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=victor+machinery+exchange&sprefix=victor+machinery+exchange&rh=n%3A228013%2Ck%3Avictor+machinery+exchange They have their own website as well. http://www.victornet.com/index.html?id=q8gce4BY The prices seem cheap ($25 for the double square) that you'd think they were poorly made but they seem to be as good as the Starrett stuff I have. The fit & finish is quite good though maybe a half-step below the Starret. The squares use hardened and ground blades just as the Starrett's do though Starrett machine divides their rules and PEC simply etches theirs, they match mark for mark when their blades are put side by side. PEC are also made in the USA as well if that matters to you. It's something to at least look into. I also got a set of steel engineer's squares from amazon as well for $20 (2", 3", 4" & 6" that were dead square. They were just some no name stuff that Victor sold. From what I can tell they were made in India. They were finished quite well. Long as I don't drop them they should last forever. Hope that helped some.

[Freddie]

Wow, thats really cool that you found all that stuff for those prices, those starrets are not cheap! I hope my 6 in combo stays square for a lil while, I mean I dont bang my tools around, I baby them. Im using the combo right now to mark and draw templates, so it lives in my bedroom on my computer desk for now. Fingers crossed, cuz this seems to be one of the good ones, finish is nice, the ruler is smooth and straight, no nics.

[Kerry]

Wow, thats really cool that you found all that stuff for those prices, those starrets are not cheap! I hope my 6 in combo stays square for a lil while, I mean I dont bang my tools around, I baby them. Im using the combo right now to mark and draw templates, so it lives in my bedroom on my computer desk for now. Fingers crossed, cuz this seems to be one of the good ones, finish is nice, the ruler is smooth and straight, no nics.

When you move the rule in the head be sure that you push up on the ruler lock screw on the head. That will release the tension and keep the rule (which claims to be hardened but mine sure didn't seem to be) from wearing the slot as quickly. That is something you definitely need to do with the Starrett ones as the blade (rule) is definitely hardened and the head is just cast iron. The blade would quickly wear the head's slot bottom otherwise. You can get a standard Starrett cast head combo for about ~$60-$70 on amazon. Starrett also makes a hardened steel head line that would obviously wear much better with the hardened blades but the same combo is about ~$120. Much more money and probably overkill unless you are a machinist.Believe me I baby mine too. I might have gotten them cheap but I sure do NOT want to have to buy them again. Especially at full prices.

[petersb]

I check out the tool isles at HD and Lowes all the time. I have found some great deals on tools there. I started out with a hand-me-down Stanley 12" combo and a cheapie 6" combo. Eventually I was given an INCRA Guarateed square by my Dad. I checked both of my combos against the INCRA and they are both right on! I have been using them both for about 10 years and no problems yet. Maybe I am one of the rare cases, but I don't think that everything that is sold at the big box stores is total junk and a waste of $$$.

You did great buy checking for the good ones at the store. Check them occasionally and put yourself at ease. Nice work on making smart purchases.

[PaulMarcel]

Bridge City has nice squares. Right now, a set of 3 triangle squares (3", 4" and 6") is on sale for $55. Occasionally something doesn't pass inspection and they have a few 6" blems on sale for $28; the blem is that the laser-etched protractor on one side is off by 1/2 of a degree. I never use the protractor. The rest is rock solid. Weighs nothing and the non-glare anodizing is really easy to read.

6" Universal Square Blem

3", 4", and 6" Universal Square Set (no blems)

Yeah, I know, Bridge City stuff can be expensive, but this is the first time they are on sale in case you want to try it.

[jimmykx250]

I was in berlands house of tools a few weeks back asking a salesman for a large square that was square and he just kind of gave me that look. I told him i was looking for something with at least 2 12" legs on it and REASONABLY square. He said they didnt have anything that fit the bill! We were standing in front of around 40 different framing squares some steel and some aluminum and he didnt trust any of them. Yes they had starret's for some big dollars and some crowns with fixed blades but i already have a fixed 6" crown square. I guess nobody makes a decent framing square thats reasonably close (repeatibly) Has anyone here made any of the wooden ones chris schwartz has done? Something about a wooden square though- not sure how much i would trust that either wood moves too much.

[Ben H]

IMHO, those plastic and cast aluminum triangle squares where never meant to be used in furniture building. Hence the name "framing square" rough carpenters use them to get decently close when framing a structure. Being a degree or two out is close enough for 2x4 work thats nailed together.

I too struggled with buying a top quality square for years. I'd look at the Starret for 100.00 dollars and think thats crazy! The truth is, a square is no different than screwdriver, drill press, or table saw. You get what you pay for. When I finally broke down and bought a Starret, the first time I pulled it out of the box and held it in my hand, I "got it". Meaning I understand why it cost what it cost. I firmly 100% believe that anyone who breaks down and buys a top notch tool will also "get it".

Good luck on finding your new tool that will fit the bill!

[JimB1]

Well, I'm going to just give a small (very small) defense of squares that aren't quite true.

[Defense mode on]

The reality is that, as with most tools, the higher the food chain you go, the more exacting the tolerances they are built to. I don't expect a $9 square from HD to as accurate as a $50 Incra square. However in a lot of instances like rough cutting, you don't need a square that's built to .001 accuracy and the $9 job works pretty decent when you just need to be close.

[/Defense mode off]

That said, the "You get what you pay for" rule comes into effect with layout and measuring tools just as much as hand tools. My father in law is an engineer and a lot of his stuff is precision machined in Germany and you can definitely tell the difference.

Nice that you were able to find a more accurate one in the bin for cheap though.

-Jim

[blindleader]

I went to the tool aisle, and got on my knee, and started checking every rafter square. All the blue aluminum ones were off. It was crazy to see how off they were and people buy these.

As far as I know, stamped sheet metal framing/rafter squares have never been manufactured to be accurate. That was always the responsibility of the carpenter who bought them. It's a simple, if exacting procedure with a punch and hammer that doesn't take any longer to do than checking all the squares at a Home Depot. Don't forget to first tune the edges straight and parallel.

[Freddie]

I know I know lol, that speed squares are not the go-to tool for building furniture. I started out in this industry as a hardwood flooring guy, so that was my best friend on installs. Im used to the solid feel of a heavy steel square, and since I found a home depot gem(HAHAHAHA) ill use it on the occasion. I didnt bother looking at their framing squares, Im done with those. On the side, I get calls to go hang some crown or hang a couple of doors, so these tools are good to keep around for me. But if you cant find a good square, the 3-4-5 trick always works.

[BuilderBill]

You think finding a square square is hard? Try picking out a level level... And to make it even worse, try finding one that's level AND plumb!

I gave up years ago with the box stores for tools that had to be reasonably accurate. I buy Stabila levels for my crews and check them weekly. Framing may be called rough carpentry but you get a level that's out a sixteenth in 4 feet and try to plumb a 12' high wall with it and you have problems. Then go to the other end and don't remember to hold it the same way and all of a sudden your wall is 3/8 longer at the top than at the bottom.. Trust me, that ain't exactly a Good Thing, by the time you're up three stories to the roof your rafters aren't even close to what they should be and that's a Really Bad Thing...

Squares for the jobsite aren't such a big deal, we're cutting 2x4's and maybe the occasional 16" I-Joist, a 16th out over 16" ain't a big deal when you're framing. Sheathing and decking is pretty square and we measure and chalk lines, no squares involved. Hey, it's specced out as "Rough Carpentry" for a reason....

The shop's another story, though. I have a Woodpeckers 32" T-Square for panel layout(which is surprisingly accurate) and a couple of Starretts and two Incra T-Rules for everyday use. The shop squares are checked against a Moore and Wright engineers square which is supposed to be accurate to some very few hundredths of a millimeter over the entire length. It's about as close to square as I'm willing to pay for considering a certified Starrett of the same length costs a little more than $400.00 on Amazon. I didn't mind the price of the M&W, at some point you gotta have something that's a known good reference to compare your working tools against and for machine setup.

I've heard the argument that you're working with wood, it's a living material, it'll move over it's lifetime, blah, blah... But I'm not concerned with what it does twenty years down the road. If I do my job in the design stage and cut the parts so they fit tight right now any movement is relative. My job is to cut and assemble the piece as close to plumb, level and square as I possibly can at the moment I'm actually doing the work. The piece may not stay the same size but the relationship between the parts will. If I did a good job in allowing for movement when laying out and choosing materials then the piece will function well no matter what the environment or age and the relative dimensions will be stable.

A few thou here, a few more there, all of a sudden your drawer slides are binding, their tolerance is + 1/32(.0301")/ -0. That's 0 with a big Z, if you squeeze them they don't work. Now that dado you plowed in the cabinet bottom that's a 64th off square doesn't look so "good enough", especially when the end of the piece is out another 64th in the other direction.....

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you have to have a known good standard to calibrate all your tools against and work as closely as possible to that standard. Calibration-grade tools aren't cheap but they're well worth the money.

Bill

P.S. And don't buy cheap levels at big box stores.....

[Freddie]

BuilderBill, you might be the smartest person I met on here so far. That was a lot of useful information, and wowt to that 400 dollar starrett square, I had no idea they made squares that expensive. As for houses being out of square and the importance of it, I understand completely. I did a custom floor install in a 5000 sq. ft. house in muttontown. Nothing in this house was square, especially the upstairs hall. In about a 10 foot span it was off 1 1/2 inches, and we had to center herringbone with a border in this mess. I remember hating my life during that install. The foreman on the job looked like a big retarded Tony Danza. And he asked about my ford bronco everyday.