Finishing Nightmare Solutions

[EmilyS]

Hi, 

Love your videos.  I am very inexperienced - so be kind.  I am trying to match new wood (birch and pine) to existing wood cabinets.  I filled in gaps with wood filler.  Then I sanded the new wood, pretreated it with a 50/50 mix of Seal Coat and Denatured.  Applied the Dark Mahogany Gel Stain from General Finishes.  I ended up with three problems.  

1) Blotchy wood filler.  Stands out like a yellow warning flag.

2) Too much grain showing through.  The original cabinets have very little grain.

3) A little too purple.

I thought to sand down, try to put a skin of wood filler over the whole surface and then apply another coat of Sanding Seal and then the gel stain?

I thought of tinting a glaze over the top with a slight yellow cast to neutralize some of the purple in the mahogany.

After watching your excellent video on the mahogany rocker, I thought maybe to put an Amber Dye from General Finishes and then applying the Dark Mahogany gel stain.  Then I might not need to fill the grain? But would the Amber duke it out the way the Merlot does?  Maybe Cinnamon is more aggressive?

No idea what to do about the wood filler other than penciling in grain lines but maybe the dye would help?

Help!!  And many thanks!!

Emily
 

[gee-dub]

Hang in there.  The early years can be challenging but, lots of good folks will offer to help on here.  First thing, ask your questions before you do something; yeah, I know, you figured that out already .

Different woods will react to finishing protocols differently.  You may notice commercial products use a finish that is nearly like paint nearly obscuring the original material.  There is a reason for this.  Its faster and cheaper than skill.

Your birch and pine will never look the same as each other unless you obscure their characteristics but, I'm jumping ahead.  You have noticed that filler takes stain just as differently as different woods do.  To get a good match I will:

- Use the same species of material as the original.

- Make many test boards with different surface preparation and finishing protocols.

- Cross my fingers every time.

Your sealer is a good start as it tends to even out differences within the same species; preventing blotching in cherry for example.  It will not equalize filler.  As an aside, when it comes to filler Timbermate is the only thing I keep in the shop anymore.  It seems to be the most discreet and comes pre-colored to help you get closer to a match.

Sorry, I wandered off there . . . How close, physically, to the existing cabinets will the new fixtures be?  The reason I ask is we want to know if the match has to be dead-on or just really close.  If dead-on, I would remake your new parts out of the material that the original is made from, make many test boards of differing finish approaches until I got a match and then proceed.  If really close will work we just need to address the current boo-boos.

Do the pine and birch match close enough to meet your needs?  If so, we only have to deal with the filler.  This can be done with artists paints or other dyes prior to your top coat.  I have literally painted out flaws that only I could find after the top coat.  We'd all prefer that everything went perfectly but, wood is a natural material and can be fickle.  Let's start with the answers to the questions above.

[EmilyS]

Thanks so much!  So the woods are juxtaposed, new and old.  I am really leaning toward using the cinnamon dye and then putting the dark mahogany gel on top.  It seems like it will give me the yellower undertones missing from the gel stain and give a certain amount of grain covering.  Refinishing everything is beyond my bandwith.  I will play with paining on top of the wood filler.  And yes, I am thinking about using the Timbermate wood filler in the future.  But since my final effect is mahogany, I thought of getting the mahogany-colored Timbermate.  Largely because I have so many woodtones floating about. 

Is there any sense in coating the wood with timbermate wood filler as in this video.  And if I fill the grain, what would the order of steps be?

1. Sand with 220

2.Coat of grain filler Timbermate in Mahogany

3. Coat of sanding sealer 50/50 with denatured

4. Wood dye - Cinnamon

5. Gel Stain - Dark Mahogany

6. Sand again with 220

7. Camouflage ugly wood filler

8. Satin top coat (layers).

 

This seems like a lot of steps (and some might be multiple coats). But I am willing.

PS. I am attaching photos of the original cabinets and the wood stained with just the Dark Mahogany gel stain after a coat of sanding sealer.  My deepest thanks!

 

 

[drzaius]

8 minutes ago, EmilyS said:

I am attaching photos of the original cabinets and the wood stained with just the Dark Mahogany gel stain after a coat of sanding sealer.  My deepest thanks!

Emily, I'm going to be 'that guy' with the negative comments. Not to be mean or condescending, but just to temper your expectations. There is no way even the most experienced furniture finisher could ever make that pine plywood look like those existing cabinets. There is just too much difference in the grain between the 2 woods. Birch would be easier because of its more subdued grain. The old cabinets look like they are Luan.

The best bet for a uniform finish is to just fill and paint everything, old and new.

[EmilyS]

Sorry to hear this.  I have a LOT of wood in here.  

If I were to purchase a think luan board to cover the end caps on the island only, how would you stain them to match the old luan?

[Coop]

Emily, if it’s any consolation, we had our kitchen remodeled about ten years ago with custom built cabinets made from beech. Prior to that, the cabinets looked very similiar to the color of yours. Last year my wife convinced me to have them painted (an off white color). I was amazed at how much brighter and bigger the dining room and kitchen looks. 

[gee-dub]

1 hour ago, EmilyS said:

Is there any sense in coating the wood with timbermate wood filler as in this video.  And if I fill the grain, what would the order of steps be?

I am sorry you are getting the news that you are getting.  Believe me if there were a sliver bullet we are not the type to hold back.  We are not the type to tell someone not to do it the easy way if that will help them.

That being said, the guitar-guy in the video is grain filling.  This is something altogether different and is usually performed when one wants to achieve a smooth, sometimes glass-like, finish.

For a general homogenizing of different color tones and figures you really need to use a product that will literally blot out the original colors and figure.  Take this "cherry" finish on this commercial product:

As you can see it looks little like actual cherry:

There are styles that combine paint and stain:

I do not know what your entire ensemble looks like but, maybe some variation on this idea could work for you.  I'm sorry to report that if you surf many, many forums and look for the solution to the situation you are in, the "best" answer is to start over.  Many times this is not realistic so we have to look for the "best" solution for the situation at hand.  Good luck and please ask away; we want to help.

[EmilyS]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  I would love to keep at it a bit more before throwing in the towel.  The samples you show are interesting, Gee-dub.  How is that "cherry" look achieved ? What do you think would happen with a Cinnamon dye topped with a Gel stain in Mahogany? Would it minimize grain??  I can always paint if it's a disaster.  But I don't feel like I'm there yet. 

[drzaius]

3 hours ago, EmilyS said:

How is that "cherry" look achieved

That commercial cabinet has a 'stain' that is really more paint than stain. It's formulated specifically to hide the natural color and grain as much as possible so they don't have to be as fussy about board selection. And there's nothing wrong with that if the goal is a product that is more economical & still looks decent. But the key is that it's sprayed on. anything applied by hand is going to be much more uneven & blotchy.

If you go the spraying route, go to a pro shop (not a home center) and ask about getting a finish that is tinted. You can then spray multiple coats to build the color until you have the best match.

I've never found gel stains to be very satisfactory. It is said that they are better at masking grain, and that is true, but building the stain up enough to hide the grain & even out the coloring is problematic. A heavy layer of stain causes problems with top coat adhesion and durability. After using gel stains on several projects, I've written them off & won't be using them again. 

I can almost certainly promise you that you will not be able to get a satisfactory result with stains, gel stains, or dyes applied by hand. But that's okay. I think you should try it anyway because it's a great way to learn about staining & finishing. Then if you end up painting, then you will at least have gained experience and knowledge.

[EmilyS]

Very much appreciated.  Even in my inexperience, I know of what you speak re: gel stains.  If they are too thickly applied, they do peel off.  I just wish I had a palate of dyes and stains to play with.  I am pretty good with color and texture.  If I could get a dye with more opacity....The problem is that each product ends up costing over $25 so it is an expensive game of chance.

 

Take care, Drzaius! 

 

[wtnhighlander]

@EmilyS, the previous responses are spot-on.You might be able to achieve a reasonably homogenous look, but you will essentially be painting the surface. If you would still like to experiment with a broader pallette, check your local home centers. The Lowes and Home Depot in my area carry "sample packs" of stain colors (mostly Minwax) that look like fast food condiment packets, but are less than a dollar each.

Oh, and the cabinet in the second photo below the guitar video looks more like rotary-cut red oak than pine, IMO. Grain pores are too prominent. That stuff takes a LOT of filling to get smooth.

[EmilyS]

Excellent idea.  Thanks!

 

[drzaius]

12 hours ago, EmilyS said:

Take care, Drzaius! 

 

HAHA! Thanks Emily, how did you know that's my absolute favorite Simpsons clip?

If you are good with colors, that is half the battle. It's something that I struggle with. Lee Valley sells an assortment of dyes that you could experiment with.

[EmilyS]

From Chimpan-A to Chimpan-Z.  What's not to love?

 

One question.  What is the difference between a stain and a dye in the case of wood finishing?  Is one formulation more opaque?

Emily

 

Very much appreciated.  Even in my inexperience, I know of what you speak re: gel stains.  If they are too thickly applied, they do peel off.  I just wish I had a palate of dyes and stains to play with.  I am pretty good with color and texture.  If I could get a dye with more opacity....The problem is that each product ends up costing over $25 so it is an expensive game of chance.

 

Take care, Drzaius! 

 

[drzaius]

A dye is a clear, colored liquid, that is, a true solution. A stain is a liquid binder with powdered pigments mixed in. Dyes, because they are clear, they do not obscure the grain as much as a stain will. Dyes can also be more easily applied in several coats so you can sneak up on the level of coloring you want. They also seem to penetrate the wood a little deeper than a stain.

I don't generally use colorants on wood, other than what shellac, varnish or oil will impart. But when I do, dyes seem to give me better results than I can get with stain.

[EmilyS]

'nuff said!

 

I also like the natural look - but this task demands a match (if possible).

 

Thanks.

Emily