The Fantasy Shop, Winter 2011 Season

[Imaginos]

Over the next year or so I'll be in the market (hope to be in the market) for a table saw, jointer, planer, and band saw. I'm fairly well settled on a Sawstop PCS175-TGP252 unless someone can talk me out of it. The jointer, planer, and bandsaw I'm struggling with. So here's the fantasy that I hope to make true over the course of the next year: Assume a $6000 budget (probably). There are no preexisting cabinet or stationary tools. Two 20 amp 230v outlets are available. A moderate selection of basic hand and portable tools are already available (chisels, drills, track saw, sanders, shop vac, clamps, stuff like that). Scope of the work is household furniture, gifts, unnecessarily complex hobby projects, so on. This is not indented to be a production or income generating shop, but durability, ease of maintenance, and quality are significant factors. I have a laundry list of honey-do projects drifting about, but nothing solid enough to plan on specifically yet. The tool limitations are having a significant influence on the order in which they are accomplished. I want tools that will easily last a decade. They're also as risk of being moved 2-3 times, potentially across the country, over the same decade. I have read the shop inventory list at BenchMark Woodworking, and while certainly interesting, I wanted to leverage the experience here and hear from owners of specific products. I also don't like the incremental upgrade approach because it inevitably becomes more expensive over the long run. There's something to be said about getting a tool to teach you about other tools, but when it comes to this kind of money, I want to do this dance only once.

I'm taking a hard look at the Jet JJP-12 for around $2k. Seems like a quality tool, but for half the price I could get a 10" Grizzly G0675 and possibly be quite pleased with it. At 10" vs 12", I believe I could work with either, but the question is, is the JJP-12 worth twice a much for a small shop? A jointer and planer in a single device is appealing to me. I like quality, I like simplicity. If you're an owner of either of these, I'd very much like to hear from you. Or, if you have an alternative with two tools that hit roughly the same price points, I'd like to hear about that too. What's Grizzly like in general?

As far as band saws go, the Powermatic PWBS-14CS appears very solid, very general purpose, and very flexible in the long run. A Laguna LT14 SUV could be made to work withing the budget as well, particularly with the Grizzly option above. I do anticipate getting a lot of mileage out of resawing with the kinds of lumber I've been idyllically thinking about. From what I've been reading, I'm probably going to get a Resaw King at some point too. We'll see how that plays out.

What about an oscillating spindle sander? Maybe a drum sander?

[Joraft]

Over the next year or so I'll be in the market (hope to be in the market) for a table saw, jointer, planer, and band saw. I'm fairly well settled on a Sawstop PCS175-TGP252 unless someone can talk me out of it. The jointer, planer, and bandsaw I'm struggling with. So here's the fantasy that I hope to make true over the course of the next year: Assume a $6000 budget (probably). There are no preexisting cabinet or stationary tools. Two 20 amp 230v outlets are available. A moderate selection of basic hand and portable tools are already available (chisels, drills, track saw, sanders, shop vac, clamps, stuff like that). Scope of the work is household furniture, gifts, unnecessarily complex hobby projects, so on. This is not indented to be a production or income generating shop, but durability, ease of maintenance, and quality are significant factors. I have a laundry list of honey-do projects drifting about, but nothing solid enough to plan on specifically yet. The tool limitations are having a significant influence on the order in which they are accomplished. I want tools that will easily last a decade. They're also as risk of being moved 2-3 times, potentially across the country, over the same decade. I have read the shop inventory list at BenchMark Woodworking, and while certainly interesting, I wanted to leverage the experience here and hear from owners of specific products. I also don't like the incremental upgrade approach because it inevitably becomes more expensive over the long run. There's something to be said about getting a tool to teach you about other tools, but when it comes to this kind of money, I want to do this dance only once.

I'm taking a hard look at the Jet JJP-12 for around $2k. Seems like a quality tool, but for half the price I could get a 10" Grizzly G0675 and possibly be quite pleased with it. At 10" vs 12", I believe I could work with either, but the question is, is the JJP-12 worth twice a much for a small shop? A jointer and planer in a single device is appealing to me. I like quality, I like simplicity. If you're an owner of either of these, I'd very much like to hear from you. Or, if you have an alternative with two tools that hit roughly the same price points, I'd like to hear about that too. What's Grizzly like in general?

As far as band saws go, the Powermatic PWBS-14CS appears very solid, very general purpose, and very flexible in the long run. A Laguna LT14 SUV could be made to work withing the budget as well, particularly with the Grizzly option above. I do anticipate getting a lot of mileage out of resawing with the kinds of lumber I've been idyllically thinking about. From what I've been reading, I'm probably going to get a Resaw King at some point too. We'll see how that plays out.

What about an oscillating spindle sander? Maybe a drum sander?

Imaginos, I'm doing much the same thing, putting together a "not-for-profit" dream shop. And because I'm no spring chicken, this will most certainly be my last purchase for every machine I buy, no upgrades later. I've spent the last two years acquiring my machines, and I think I'm now finished (hopefully ).

As far as sanders go, I chose a wide belt over a drum sander (Felder), and I just recently bought a belt sander, disc sander, and oscillating spindle sander (all General International). I think General International machines are a good balance between cost and quality. Of course with Felder quality is never an issue, but the cost often can be.

[Keggers]

You'll get as many opinions on shop equipment as there are woodworkers, so all I can speak of is my own experience. My shop equipment is all Grizzly - with the exception of my router table and my panel saw. My oscillating spindle sander is a Grizzly and it's great! I also have a 17" Grizzly bandsaw which is a real workhorse. I only use it to rough saw wood since I'm not really much of a builder. I sell lumber so folks like you can build the nice stuff. I have a Grizzly 12" jointer and a Grizzly 15" planer - both with helical heads. Both are excellent machines.

With your $6000 budget you will have to choose wisely. If it helps, in my experience, and I use my equipment seven days a week, Grizzly is top shelf stuff. I work all my machines hard and haven't had one problem after four years of use.

Your choice of a table saw is a fine one, though I personally went with a Grizzly 12" 5hp model cabinet saw.. I believe a fellow WT member recently bought the Grizzly jointer/planer combo that you listed, so maybe he'll chime in. I don't remember who it was.

I don't know if I've helped or confused the issue. Grizzly is good stuff and their customer service is outstanding.

Good luck and happy buying!

And no, I'm not affiliated with Grizzly in any way!

[Static_23]

i would highly recomend a drum sander. i do not have one but ever time i do something wish i had one.

i also have a small shop and went with a 15" jet planer and 6" delta jointer. both used fit my budget. got both for under 450. i personly like the width on the planer and wish i would have gotten a 8" jointer. both are on wheels so its easy to tuck them away.

im not sold on the 2 in 1 deal. i usually joint 2 sides then plane and then rip to size. with minimal set up time. dont know if i would like bending over all the time when planing something into size.

[jHop]

My logic on the "benchtop" planer (DW 735 - although the link is to the "-x" model that includes the outfeed wings that mine do not have) was that I wanted something large enough to handle the majority of the boards I would come across, but small enough to be mobile and not take up too much room when it was not in use. I've seen (and am planing on building) the flip-top table to mount the planer on. The source came from this forum, and I appreciate it. Having moved since I started the plan, I'm modifying it for the current space, which has an issue in that it has to fit through a door to be used. This might be an approach you will look into, regarding mobile bases and tables. (like sliding the base under the counter to free up assembly space)

I personally am not getting an oscillating spindle sander, going with the drums to be mounted in the drill press instead. Floor space is a premium in my shop... Does not mean I don't drool over them.

But my logic and circumstances aren't yours. If I could, I'd still keep the DW 735 and add an 8inch jointer (probably Grizzly; local supply reasons) to go with it.

[Joraft]

You'll get as many opinions on shop equipment as there are woodworkers, so all I can speak of is my own experience.

... Grizzly is top shelf stuff.

... Grizzly is good stuff and their customer service is outstanding.

As you say, there are bound to be many differing opinions on woodworking machines. But, certain facts are indisputable. To call Grizzly machines "top shelf" is to compare them with the likes of Altendorf, Martin, or Felder. Not so, there is simply no comparison.

On the other hand, to say that Grizzly machines give good performance at their price level, and that their customer service is good, seems to me to be quite fair. I have several friends with Grizzly machines, and for the most part they are satisfied (although most aspire to move up). I do believe that Grizzly machines from Taiwan are better (and more expensive) than Grizzly machines from China.

[Keggers]

As you say, there are bound to be many differing opinions on woodworking machines. But, certain facts are indisputable. To call Grizzly machines "top shelf" is to compare them with the likes of Altendorf, Martin, or Felder. Not so, there is simply no comparison.

My reference to Grizzly being top shelf wasn't intended to be a comparison to other machines. I'm sure there are manufacturers who build higher quality machines. I didn't make myself clear. My intent was to convey my opinion that Grizzly was top shelf considering the huge workload I put on my equipment, since I've never had a breakdown or a machine that failed to perform as it was intended. And since the man was considering buying a piece of Grizzly equipment, I thought he might like to hear about my experience and opinions on my Grizzly equipment. I'm sorry for any confusion my comment may have caused.

[Joraft]

I'm sorry for any confusion my comment may have caused.

Thanks for the response, I see now that we were taking the meaning of "top shelf" differently.

[wilburpan]

I'm taking a hard look at the Jet JJP-12 for around $2k. Seems like a quality tool, but for half the price I could get a 10" Grizzly G0675 and possibly be quite pleased with it. At 10" vs 12", I believe I could work with either, but the question is, is the JJP-12 worth twice a much for a small shop?

I have Rikon's version of the 10" jointer/planer. I got it for space reasons. I love the thing. Having said that, the only reason I don't have a 12" jointer/planer is because of space. Otherwise, I would have gotten one.

[Imaginos]

Maybe I'm coming at this from the wrong end. So lemme try this:

I know that the tools I'm looking at aren't on equal footing in terms of price tag, but putting that aside, what should be the priority? Say I could only get them one at a time. What comes first? Jointer? Table saw? Band saw? Or another question that has the same kind of problem. Which of these tools is the better investment per dollar? Why? Again very abstract and broad questions, but please remember that I'm not at a point where I have the wood working vocabulary to do much better just yet.

I also have a 17" Grizzly bandsaw which is a real workhorse.

Which one? They have a pretty deep selection. Have any of the polar bear series? I was looking at the Lagunas, more or less, because the one I was crawling over at Woodcraft had a fence that I liked, something that I felt I understood how to work with. I'm really interested in thoughts and observations from the trenches. I'm also concerned that I've been looking too closely at tables and fences at the expense of the rest of the saw.

If I could, I'd still keep the DW 735 and add an 8inch jointer (probably Grizzly; local supply reasons) to go with it.

I think the biggest problem I've run into is that I don't see a big selection of 8" to 10" (or even 12") jointers that aren't in the $2k price range in their own right. That would put the total price up to around $2500-$2700 for both. For $1600 I can get a Laguna 10" jointer/planer in one package. The Rikon and Grizzey above are far less than that. I could be jointing and planing to 10" for almost 1/3 the cost of getting separate machines. More so, is there any real benefit to having a 13" planer matched to an 8" jointer? There are obvious workflow benefits with separate machines and I have zero doubt that's a big time saver, but it seems like a disconnect to me. I truly do not understand if there's something more to it, and someone smack me if I'm throwing rocks.

[VitalBodies]

The first priority (I have read) is to be able to true a board.

Jointer > Table saw > Planer - in that order.

You will likely need to miter that board to length also - and all of those benefit from dust collection.

The next is step to build stuff with that true board and all the rest depends on what you hope to build.

A cabinet maker is different than a Luther who is different than a fine furniture maker who is different than a hobbyist etc...

I get the impression TWW is a fine furniture maker who occasionally builds other stuff - shop, charity etc for example.

Make sure you have what you need to make accurate boards and joints at least.

Unless of course you are a Lathe person and then you might think in terms of lathe and saw mill etc.

I think if you define what you WANT to do or do most or at least do first in terms of wood working, that might help set the relativity of what machines to buy and in what order.

If you are in doubt you either follow the money or the heart (what would you love to do) - or in rare instances both...

Or...

[Imaginos]

I think if you define what you what to do or do most or at least do first in terms of wood working, that might help set the relativity of what machines to buy and in what order.

Yeah, and that's the rub. I know that with my chosen profession I won't have the time to truly get into wood working the way I'd like to, not for quite some time. There are things I know I want to build. I'm completing a new computer desk right now. I'm building a DVD case next. Then a desk for my daughter, a sofa table, so on. I was seriously looking at resawing to fumble through the spanish cedar for a humidor for as a gift by next christmas, then remake my digital humidor monster/disaster. My wife and I have also lazily discussed a new dining room table. There's stuff to do. Plywood has been my friend so far and I can get through a lot of that with portable tools and enough curse words, but I want to move on to more elaborate and finer builds. The problem is that from the going-in position, I won't really know what I'll be doing until I get there. Even worse, I'll probably wind using the capabilities I have just because I have them (this is, after all, a hobby/relaxation activity for me). That's my I'm looking for the most general purpose stuff I can get. Having slept on it, as much as I would like the Jet or Laguna Jointer/Planer, I think I'll get the Grizzly 10" and put the extra money toward a cyclone. At least, that's the plan for the next half hour or so.

[Beechwood Chip]

I'd recommend not buying everything at once.

If you buy an additional tool for each project, then you have a chance to lovingly set up the tool, read through the manual, learn all the features, get it adjusted to your satisfaction, and then use it on a project that really makes use of its strengths (after all, you bought it for this project). If you buy everything at once, then you are faced with weeks of assembling tools, reading manuals, calibrating, adjusting and dialing in, cleaning off Cosmolene and putting on wax. Look at Marc's videos on setting up a table saw, band saw, and especially a jointer. These are long, tedious, frustrating jobs, and I for one don't want to be faced with a whole bunch of them all at once.

[Eric.]

I know that the tools I'm looking at aren't on equal footing in terms of price tag, but putting that aside, what should be the priority? Say I could only get them one at a time. What comes first? Jointer? Table saw? Band saw? Or another question that has the same kind of problem. Which of these tools is the better investment per dollar? Why? Again very abstract and broad questions, but please remember that I'm not at a point where I have the wood working vocabulary to do much better just yet.

Right now I'm facing the challenge that Chip just mentioned. I'm currently about one year ahead of you, Imaginos...I just made the transition from hobbyist to "serious hobbyist." After a couple years of researching and saving up funds, I went out and bought a bunch of machines at once. After much deliberation, I purchased most of them from Grizzly, with the exception of the router table (yet to be acquired) and a PM2800 drill press. If budget wasn't an issue for me, I probably would have gone with another brand, but going with Grizzly allowed me to get more machines, bigger machines, more powerful machines, for the same amount of cash. I haven't had the chance yet to play with them extensively, for I'm still setting them up and working on cleaning out and rearranging the shop, but from what little time I've had on them, I'm very pleased. I think most big brands are going to be "close enough," as long as you take the time to properly tune whatever tools you end up with. Some will be more frustrating to set up than others and will require more frequent tuning, but if you're fastidious enough, you can make perfect cuts on just about any machine as long as it's not a complete piece of junk. I also believe that if you take care of your machines and maintain them properly, they will last a very long time, regardless of the name on them.

I first bought the GO690 table saw, then went back and bought the G0490 jointer, G0453P planer, G0513X2F bandsaw, and a 2HP canister dust collector...the model number eludes me at the moment. The only issue I've had with any of them was the table on the bandsaw was pretty significantly warped, but I returned it and they sent me a new one, no questions asked. And that's not really an issue that's isolated to just Grizzly...I think I remember Marc had a similar issue with his Powermatic table saw, too...it happens. Grizzly's customer service has been excellent so far. And to your question about the Polar Bear Series...the only difference is the white paint...they're all identical to some other machine, only it's green and off-white.

All that aside, I think more important than the brand you pick is the types of machines you buy first. I'll echo VitalBodies for the most part, except I'll disagree with his order. I think the table saw should come first if you're buying one at a time...there are lots of things you can do with just a table saw, but really only one thing you can do with a jointer. So my list of priorities would be:

table saw

jointer and planer together (one is nearly worthless without the other)

bandsaw

router table and router

drill press

dust collection

That's the meat and potatoes of any serious shop, and if you're smart with your money, you can probably get there with 6K...I did. Good luck and have fun with your research.

[Beechwood Chip]

table saw

jointer and planer together (one is nearly worthless without the other)

bandsaw

router table and router

drill press

dust collection

That's a pretty good sequence, but I'd make a few changes:

• I'd bump up dust collection, unless you are in a shop where you can just open all the windows (or the garage door) and blow everything out.
  
• I'd get a compound miter saw, before the drill press
  

But, most importantly, I wouldn't stick to any pre-defined list. If your first project can be done with your existing tools, but a drill press would really make it easier and cut down on "oops" do-overs, then get a drill press first.

And make sure that jointer has adjustments for leveling the tables.

[rmac]

But, most importantly, I wouldn't stick to any pre-defined list. If your first project can be done with your existing tools, but a drill press would really make it easier and cut down on "oops" do-overs, then get a drill press first.

Amen. This is the key, and I've said it here over and over again. Pick a project that you want to build and try to build it. If you find yourself needing a tool, buy it. Someday you will find that you are no longer buying new tools. At that point, one of two things will be true:

1. You will have exactly the tools you need, and you will have bought them in the correct order (for you).
   
2. You will be dead.
   

-- Russ

[Joraft]

I'd recommend not buying everything at once.

If you buy an additional tool for each project, then you have a chance to lovingly set up the tool, read through the manual, learn all the features, get it adjusted to your satisfaction, and then use it on a project that really makes use of its strengths (after all, you bought it for this project). If you buy everything at once, then you are faced with weeks of assembling tools, reading manuals, calibrating, adjusting and dialing in, cleaning off Cosmolene and putting on wax. Look at Marc's videos on setting up a table saw, band saw, and especially a jointer. These are long, tedious, frustrating jobs, and I for one don't want to be faced with a whole bunch of them all at once.

That's a good point.

To me, one advantage to getting the majority of machines at once is shop layout. As I have acquired my machines, I have changed the layout several times to get the most efficient use of space. While it is possible to get machine dimensions ahead of time, even required working space, and build a plan from that, there's nothing like having the actual machine there for a true idea of the space it will require. I'm sure there will be some changes necessary as I get up and running, but I hope to minimize any later changes to electrical, air lines, and dust collector ducting, which can get expensive. Many of my machines are 3 phase, and that I only want to route around the shop once, if possible.

But as Chip says, the downside is that I will have to go through a lot of tedious machine setups all at once.

[dwacker]

I'd take a closer look at your list. You said you only want to do this once. The tablesaw is the center of your shop and the most used tool. You picked a saw that I would consider a underpowered fad and at $2500 you could do so much better. 1.75 HP is not enough HP for the $$$. Yes you can nick hot dogs and maybe save yourself a finger but reality is more fingers are lost on RAS, shapers and bandsaws than TS's. At that price you could get a 3hp cabinet saw that can use full kerf blades and cut cleaner.

Bandsaws, you said you intend to do alot of resawing. Although I'm fond of Powermatic but the 14" is not a resawing saw. The Laguna is much closer to your description. Yes alot of people use their little machines to resaw and even to rough cut logs. Reality is in today's day and age with imported tools they will just not hold up over the long term. The bearings are to small, some use aluminum wheels. The minimax 16" is an affordable saw that will outperform them all right out of the box.

Combo jointer planers. These were made to compete with their big brother counterparts like the Felder, minimax and hammer. The difference is that they are not made to the same standards and with a multifunction machine high standards becomes even more important. The mass, bearing and cutter head design really makes a big difference. The import combos are just not built to handle that sort of jointing capacity. So keep in mind if you got the 12" combo you got a 12 planer but by no means got a 12" jointer. If you think you need a 10 or 12 inch jointer Id get seperate machine or move up to at least minimax or hammer.

Those four machines are the the corner stones to you workshop. I'd invest as much as you can justify in those and worry about everything else later as time goes on.

Don

[jHop]

The reason I did not mention a table saw is that I feel (and I am in the minority on this) that a table saw is not as relevant as it used to be. Much of what I want to do on the table saw, I can do with other tools.

For example, dadoes and grooves can be cut using a router (hand held or table). Finger joints, box joints, and ripping can be done on a band saw. Resawing is primarily done on the bandsaw anyway. (Don't ask, it's a long and horrible story with the only benefit being I still have my fingers.)

So I'd opt to save your money by not getting the table saw at all, and invest in a pair of bandsaws. (the larger for resawing, the smaller for everyday use.)

That said, I do miss the large assembly table surface of a table saw. I also concur that the 13 combo jointer/planer (my DW 735 theoretically falls into this) does not mean you have an actual 13" surface to use. The nice thing about this machine is that you trim off the top when you use it. The draw back is that it gets coplaner to the bottom surface. If your stock needs to be surfaced all the way around, this means adding a temporary flat surface (aka sled) to the bottom. And you never get the full 13 inch width. But if you have an 8 inch jointer, you can get a wide enough side profile to get two perpendicular faces jointed (squared to each other) that you can take that same board to the planer and do the other two sides.

True, you can square up the edge on a table saw (or band saw, once you've mastered the drift issue) faster than using the planer. But not running to a third tool saves me time and effort. Especially when I don't have the shop space or power to run all three simultaneously.

(I should mention, also, my choices are skewed by my shop set up. I operate out of essentially a 4' by 5' shed. All the tools except the lathe and the drill press have to be wheeled out of the shed and onto the patio to work, and the extension cord is plugged into the kitchen outlet, since there's no power outside. power and space requirements are going to be a factor in your tool purchases, as well. Probably not to the extremes mine are, though.)

[VitalBodies]

Do you have Power (220 volts and 20 amp 115 volts) Dust Collection, Storage, Work Bench(s) and 5500k Lighting? Those are excellent projects to do while pondering the ultimate machines. This is where I started out and am still working on this. I have power in place and most of my dust collection. Storage is a work in process and ya it is hard to resist the next TWW guild build for a work bench. Lighting still needs to happen but the main lines are in.

To weigh in on the machine questions: (to each their own quandary)

I often wonder about the Festool vs traditional machines approach like you are pondering.

European vs US vs China/Thailand/etc

Dust collection is not an option in my mind now that I have that in place - wow, it is nice.

Every project is different but they ALL MAKE A BIG MESS.

I brought up what you are going to do, and you responded - mostly with furniture - and as you know, accuracy counts in that realm.

Have you considered a Woodmaster Planer with the Pro Pack?

[tombuhl]

Fun times, if a bit bewildering. Yes, on dust collection as a priority.

Nitpicks: I have but don't use my belt/disk sander. But get lots of use out of the drum sander. Somewhat depends on type of work you do and your own working style. I primarily do small to medium-sized casework, tables and such as a serious hobbyist. In my hands belt/disk sanders are just too aggressive and nasty to suit my tastes and abilities. Drum sander lets you work with smaller thickness than a planer can do safely. I've played with jigs and pushed the limits but that is what it is...pushing limits. I use thin stock for inlays (relatively thick geometrics), drawer components, boxes. It is a bit wider than my planer (16 vs 13) so I also use it for wide panels. Less chance of tear out as you near completion of a project.

I'd give some thought to Don's comments on combo jointer/planer machines. You aren't likely to have duty cycle issues as a hobbyist, but a good degree of confidence in your machines and their setups is important. In anticipated operation we might go from jointer then planer and a few minutes setup is not a big deal, however, oftentimes I find myself going back to one or the other and appreciating having the setup (for either planer or jointer) as I last used it. As a hobbyist we can afford some inefficiencies, but the accuracy of dialing in a thickness or other setting is still important. For most hobbyists an 8" jointer maxes the budget and space. With combo you get a bit more, but once again beware of promoted specs and actual operational specifications.

I find a quality drill press to be very valuable. I've had a PM2800 for a year now. Very pleased with it. Had Ryobi bench top before. Which I made some very nice pieces with it, but I smile more now as I work.

Hope you continue to post as your shop comes together.

[Imaginos]

Thanks for all the feedback; it did a lot to break my tunnel vision and circular thinking. After a long conversation with my hardwood dealer, they'll mill their lumber to just about any dimensions I want for a small fee on small orders, free (more or less) on big ones, and they work with me for anything in between. That'll delay the jointer/planer for a while I think. I still really want a bandsaw, but that's been pushed back out on the horizon for a little bit. I have the Festool TS 75 track saw and I've come an awful long way with it, but the last two projects I've built have really revealed the limitations; the repeatability of a fixed fence is becoming more and more desirable than having to plane out a 32^nd or so of error in laying out the track from cut to cut on shelves. So, I'm fairly well committed to the idea of a table saw. I'm thinking the 52" 3HP Sawstop PCS and a Clear Vue cyclone none too long there after. I've been window shopping table saws for about a year and that's probably the 6^th time I've settled on a final model, so we'll see how that plays out once the cash is in hand. Hopefully that'll happen before next summer, then let the rest of it play out as it will.