Which is the best table saw?

[MikeMc]

Before the flame wars start ;]

I am relatively new to woodworking and dont have a lot of experience with the equipment in the industry. I currently have a Ryobi 10" table saw purchased for about $120.00. I put a wood facing on the fence but the saw just cannot be relied upon to make good cuts and lining up the blade against the fence is a lot of work.

So, I am interested in a cabinet level table saw as the first real piece of my wood shop.

I have looked at the Saw Stop brand and am very impressed with the safety features. It seems to add between $700 & $1000 dollars to the saw although how much does a finger cost?

To be honest, after considering granite and cast iron table tops I have to admit that I am probably not good enough at woodworking for the difference to matter. How rare is it for a cast iron table to warp? Living in Phoenix the table will have to endure 110 degrees to 70 degrees on a regular basis.

One of my primary goals is to get a table and/or fence system that makes measuring and cutting pieces very easy. I am not sure if one manufacturer stands out in this regard or buying a table from one and a fence from another is the best way to go.

Are there any other features or capabilities of a table saw that make it stand out from the other models or manufacturers?

I would like to go into this purchase with the most knowledge possible. Thanks in advance.

[Bobby Slack]

Good morning Mike. If I would buy a cabinet level saw today it would be the Soft Stop. To be honest, I own a Bosch 10" because my business model is to be mobile and I can work here in Redondo Beach, CA or my cabin in the mountains in Colorado.

[DeGauss]

Mike,

I would be another vote for the SawStop. It took me two years to save the money for the Industrial SawStop (at the time it was the only option)and I have never regretted it. It is by far one of my favorite and best tools I own. And now with the Contractor, Hybrid, Professional lineup it is even easier to do. I will also say that for me the customer service from the local dealer and SawStop have been great even years after the purchase.

-Gary

[Dave F]

Fortunately we live in a time where it's almost difficult to make a mistake when buying a table saw. Stick with the major brands in your price range and your'll most likely get a good quality product with regards to functionality, durability and quality of build. The diffewrences will come in based on the features that you desire.

Personal favorites of mine include Saw Stop, Powermatic, Jet, Delta and Ridgid. I'm shopping for the new Ridgid 4512 right now. I'm just awaiting delivery to my local Ridgid retailer (HD). I chose that model because in my situation it offers great reliability, mobility, excellent warranty and service and a price I can afford.

If you are going to go for an aftermarket fence system then any of the brands I mentioned above will do a great job for you. If you want to stick with the fence that comes with the saw, then I'd look them all over closely and see which ones come closest to meeting your personal needs and desires.

[Beechwood Chip]

The first saw I bought was a $120 Delta. It was accurate and reliable, but I ditched it because the miter slots were smaller than standard and it wouldn't take standard accessories. Also, it didn't have a riving knife.

I really liked my Bosch 4100 10". I found it to be accurate and reliable, well engineered and user friendly, and it was also portable and lightweight. Plus, I got it from CPO refurb for $380. It was a little small for cutting panels, but I could set up supports to make it work.

But, then I put my hand into a spinning blade (no serious damage, the blade was almost spun down, but it was an eye opener!) Now I own the Sawstop contractor. Call me crazy, but I kinda miss my Bosch. Mostly because I got the 52" rails and extension table since the Bosch was a little small, and then realized that the new saw is a little too big for my shop. Last weekend I moved a lot of stuff around and I think I have a setup that will work.

[Jherndo]

Love my SawStop. It keeps the wife from worrying as much and you can get a decked out contractor/hybrid version for about as much as just a standard cabinet saw. Only thing I don't like about it is the fence could be a little better, you might consider a 3rd party one.

[daninhim]

As much as I'd love a SawStop I don't have the funds. Right now I have a Delta 10" contractor ($400) with the stock fence which does quite well. Things I DON'T like:

-blade guard was terrible and I could never get it lined up. alas, it sits in the dust pile under the saw.

-No riving knife (after all it's 7 or so years old)

-Motor hangs off the back. Typical of contractor saws, but very annoying in my 12x11 shop.

-Stock fence doesn't move smoothly when loosened up, because the back end hangs loose. while it's very accurate to line up with the ruler guage, not so much when you are trying to line up a piece of wood next to it because, when loose, it lays on the table at an angle.

Delta was also very good to work with when i got the saw. When I first opened the box and assembled it, I discovered that they'd applied the ruler guage backwards on the wrong end of the horizontal beam that the fence travels on. I called them up and explained, and they sent me a new ruler (sticker) AND a new beam! So now I've got this extra 4' long square aluminum beam that, some day before i die, I will find a use for.

[mikem]

Probably one of the most loaded questions one can ask on a woodworking site. I agree sawstop is the way to go if you have the cash. They are expensive. If it is out of your price range, I agree most major brands are good. Stay away from the bench style saws. (aluminum top, plastic body, direct drive universal motors) They may start out running true and accurate, but they will get to a point where you will spend more time making adjustments than you will making cuts. (If you walk into Lowes, pretty much everything they sell but the Porter Cable fall into this category)

I think the debate between cast iron and granite is mostly preference, but definitely go with one of those. Cast iron has been a mainstay for the pros for a long time, so I think it would be hard to go wrong with that. Even a low end contractor saw (typically starting around $600 new) would be a good start. (Like the Porter Cable they sell at Lowes)

Another option, which is whay I did, is Craigslist. There are a lot of folks out there that are selling Contractor style Table Saws (Cast Iron top, belt driven motor) for a good price. I bought a craftsman last winter, and after putting it through its paces have been putting updates on it like a new splitter, and the new fence is literally in the mail. My total investment will be about $300.

[MikeMc]

Probably one of the most loaded questions one can ask on a woodworking site. I agree sawstop is the way to go if you have the cash.

To be honest, I consider this and the jointer to be the two most important tools in my shop. And as such, I just want to buy once rather than have any regrets.

[Sac]

To be honest, I consider this and the jointer to be the two most important tools in my shop. And as such, I just want to buy once rather than have any regrets.

Could agree with that statement any more. I am a firm believer of buying tools once. I myself have a General. Good saw. I have no complaints. And a good fence make all the difference.

[PaulMarcel]

I have the 3 hp SawStop PCS. There's nothing about it I don't like. I only got the 30" fence because I don't do initial breakdown of sheet goods on it and I wanted the extra 26" of floor space! If you consider the SawStop, get their integrated mobile base rather than a third-party base; it actually sets the saw down with wheels retracted so it is very stable.

In my case, typing at the computer all day pays for whatever goes in my shop. Much as I like to think I'm careful, you can't always guess what the internal stresses are in a piece of hardwood you're cutting.

I'm actually surprised reading this thread that there are so many of them out there. That's a good thing

[Beechwood Chip]

To be honest, I consider this and the jointer to be the two most important tools in my shop. And as such, I just want to buy once rather than have any regrets.

You may have missed my rant on this in one of the previous forum incarnations. I've owned four table saws, and I don't consider any of them a waste of time or money. If I had spent a lot of money on the first saw I probably would have been wasting it. I didn't know what features I cared about and which I didn't, I wouldn't have known my personal preferences, I wouldn't have known how to evaluate different saws, and I wouldn't have known how much I was going to use the saw and whether I was going to stick with wood-working long term.

Each saw I got was good value for the money spent, and met my needs at the time. Using it helped me to appreciate the features it lacked, and allowed me to make good decisions on my next purchase. I only traded up when I really understood the shortcomings of my current tool.

Also, keep in mind that there probably aren't any people here who tried woodworking for a while and decided to move on to something else. So, everyone here will tell you that you are better off buying a good quality saw that will last a lifetime and that you won't have to replace as your skills develop. It's like asking a bunch of college professors whether getting a degree is worth while. To get a balanced perspective, you should probably also ask some people who got a college degree and ended up serving coffee at Starbucks, with tons of student loan debt.

Woodworkers, especially hobbyist woodworkers, get involved for all sorts of different reasons, with all sorts of different goals. I don't think there's a right or a wrong decision here. There may be specific models that are bad decisions, but in general whether to go inexpensive or mid-range or top-shelf is up to you. There's a lot of merit to the old adage, "Buy expensive, cry once. Buy cheap, cry every time you use it."

For me, I'd start by deciding what I wanted to do, and then figuring out what tools I needed to do it. Then, buy all the tools I needed to do what I wanted. I'd rather be cranking out projects with a $500 table saw and a $500 planer and a $300 bandsaw and a $400 jointer and a $200 router, than to have a $2000 table saw and nothing else. If you have so much per month to put towards tools, think, "Am I willing to wait N months to get the better tool?"

Sorry for the rant - I get a little wired this time of day.

[Sac]

For me, I'd start by deciding what I wanted to do, and then figuring out what tools I needed to do it. Then, buy all the tools I needed to do what I wanted. I'd rather be cranking out projects with a $500 table saw and a $500 planer and a $300 bandsaw and a $400 jointer and a $200 router, than to have a $2000 table saw and nothing else. If you have so much per month to put towards tools, think, "Am I willing to wait N months to get the better tool?"

The man does have a point. But everything is dependent on each persons budget.

[PaulMarcel]

True, longevity in this hobby is also an important factor you point out, Beech. I guess I assumed someone who has some tools already and wants to commit to upgrading likely feels they'll stick with it.

In my case, I borrowed my dad's Craftsman (this one was Crapsman) table saw for a year-ish before buying a PM64 so I had the benefit of a saw I didn't pay for until I figured out I like this hobby. I got a way smokin' deal on the PM64, but still lost money in the end when I sold it to get the SawStop. I chalked it up to "rent" of the saw for the years I had it. Just gotta think of the loss on each resale. That's where tools that aren't ultimately what you want cost you. You're point is well taken, though, Beech.

Just to stir the pot a bit more: some higher end tools actually retain resale value if you decide to ditch the hobby.

[MikeMc]

For me, I'd start by deciding what I wanted to do, and then figuring out what tools I needed to do it.

I started by building the outfeed table displayed in one of Marc's videos. My 2nd and current project is a 13 drawer 1 cabinet workbench for the north wall of my garage. The next few projects include more tables and cabinets including the torsion box top table to help me with assembly.

Once I have gotten the basics down and my shop outfitted I want to make a bed as my 1st professional piece of furniture. I am not sure whether it will be my own personal bed or one for the guest bedroom. After that my intention is to manufacture every door, cabinet and piece of wood trim for the 25 year old house I bought about 6 months ago.

By the time I am done I hope to have paid for the tools and experience with less money than what I would have had to buy the components separately.

After all that if I have any energy left I am probably going to make picture frames for my other hobby which is photography, maybe set up a little studio and try to make some money back...

[iSawitFirst]

I bought my table saw around 5 years ago. I did a lot of research and found the the Grizzley G1023SL was the best value. Since then the model number has changed to G1023RL and a riving knife has been added. Very good value.

Today if I were going to buy a new table saw I'd give serious consideration the Delta's Unisaw. Yea, the SawStop won't cut you but most injuries are caused by kickback. The Unisaw is most impressive.

[minorhero]

Sawstop makes a big deal out of their safety features. What most folk don't tell you is that 1) it can misfire, 2) when it does engage the brake it destroys the saw blade, 3) it costs apparently about 70 dollars for a brake cartridge, which is also disposable after it engages, 4) at least some of their saws come with a switch to turn off the safety feature since it will misfire if you are cutting very thin pieces of material.

If you have been suffering through with a tiny benchtop saw for a while now and are still interested in woodworking then chances are you are going to keep this hobby. If that is the case then you should buy the best saw you can comfortably afford. As others have pointed out you can buy some great used saws on craigslist. The only issue there is you need to be prepared to do some work on them (ie replace bearings etc). Unless you are buying tools that have only been used once or twice there could be hidden defects you won't notice till you get them home. Personally that is no bother to me and I actively seek out great deals on really old tools and fix them up. Other people don't want the hassle.

What saw you buy will likely be determined by how much you have to spend. If you are in the 2000 to 3000 budget range then a sawstop, unisaw, and powermatic are easily available to you. If you are less then that then you are looking at grizzly's, jets, generals, and steel city saws. If you are sub 1000 budget range then you are either looking at used saws or not looking at cabinet saws at all. At that range you are looking at hybrid saws or contractor's saws. There are some great saws in that range and pretty much all of them would be a giant upgrade from your current saw. Personally among new table saws I am a big Ridgid fan. You can get a great deal on a ridgid saw that has a fantastic built in mobile base for 400 dollars if you don't mind doing some legwork with homedepot.

In regards to your original question. What will determine ease of measurement and square fences is not so much the saw as the fence itself. Fences are easy to replace with third party options if you don't like the supplied fence. Pretty much any modern saw (that is not a benchtop) will come with a fence that is square every time and has clear measurement markings.

[Autorotate]

Just spend the extra money and get the Sawstop. Even when your doing something safe (or at least you think you are) accidents happen. Take myself for example. I had just bought the steel city granite top saw and was making a zero clearance plate. I was using the fence to hold the right side of the plate down and using a push stick to hold the left side down. As I was cranking the blade up the push stick slipped and went in to the blade. It happened so quickly that I did not have time to let go of the stick. It pulled my hand down on top of the blade (which luckily was not that high yet) BUT high enough to cut my pinkie and ring finger below my knuckles which severed my tendons and nicked the bone of my pinkie. After paying the bills that the insurance didn't cover. and the money I lost from selling the table saw. I could have bought two or three Sawstops, which is what I have now. If I had just got the Sawstop to begin with I might have a lot smaller scar on the back of my hand. Which brings me back to the first sentence Just get it. You just never know.

I highly recommend not making a zero clearance throat plate this way. I now use a 3-4in wide board and long enough to clamp it down on the front and back fence rails that way you don't even have to but your hands on the table.

[Jherndo]

Sawstop makes a big deal out of their safety features. What most folk don't tell you is that 1) it can misfire, 2) when it does engage the brake it destroys the saw blade, 3) it costs apparently about 70 dollars for a brake cartridge, which is also disposable after it engages, 4) at least some of their saws come with a switch to turn off the safety feature since it will misfire if you are cutting very thin pieces of material.

1) A number of us have one so would anyone who has ever had a SawStop misfire please chime in? Seriously, I'm curious about this. As for myself I've had one for a year and nothing yet, my buddy at Woodcraft has also not had a false fire reported, yet. He did hear a story of a local high school shop class kid's jewelry hitting the blade and causing it to fire, but we both considered that functioning as designed.

2 & 3) Yes, this is true. The brake is $70 to replace and you need a separate dado brake which runs $90. If the brake engages it's likely going to cost you the blade as well, plus the saw can not run without a proper brake installed so if you run a production shop and don't have a woodcraft nearby that stocks them, you might consider keeping an extra on hand. All that said, it's still cheaper than an ER visit or physical therapy for a reattached finger. And call me a wimp but I'll pay a lot for something that prevents me physical pain.

4) Pretty sure all models have this. To engage the override you must turn a key when turning the blade on, there is literally no way you can engage this mode on accident. You must do this every time you wish to cut in override mode and the machine's LED lights will tell you if the brake would have engaged during the cut. There are a couple reasons you may occasionally want/need to do this, namely cutting a conductive material or a very wet piece of wood. When I first got the saw I used this mode to test out how wet a piece of wood had to be in order for a "misfire" to occur and I pretty much had to put a piece of pine in a puddle before it reported.

Not trying to get in a fight or anything but I haven't heard any complaints about #1 yet which makes 2 & 3 moot imho and 4 seems like a useful feature, not a design issue.

[Beechwood Chip]

I always thought that having a brake event cost a couple hundred dollars was a great feature. $200 is enough to get your attention, but not enough to be life-changing.

It's weird, but I think the psychology goes like this:

1) Regular saw: If I put my hand in the blade, I could cut my fingers off. That's too scary to think about, so I'll assume that it won't happen to me.

2) Sawstop: The slightest touch of the blade could cost me $200!! I better be sure not to let my hand get anywhere near that blade!

Put it another way, I hear a lot of people say that they don't like the Sawstop idea because it makes people think that they don't need to worry about safety, because the saw will take care of that for them. The $200 price tag means that you still think about it.

[Guest Mahoganus]

Any saw that is not Asian made. So that leaves one. General, which should be made by the fine Canadians.

[MikeMc]

Just spend the extra money and get the Sawstop. Even when your doing something safe (or at least you think you are) accidents happen. Take myself for example. I had just bought the steel city granite top saw and was making a zero clearance plate. I was using the fence to hold the right side of the plate down and using a push stick to hold the left side down. As I was cranking the blade up the push stick slipped and went in to the blade. It happened so quickly that I did not have time to let go of the stick. It pulled my hand down on top of the blade (which luckily was not that high yet) BUT high enough to cut my pinkie and ring finger below my knuckles which severed my tendons and nicked the bone of my pinkie. After paying the bills that the insurance didn't cover. and the money I lost from selling the table saw. I could have bought two or three Sawstops, which is what I have now. If I had just got the Sawstop to begin with I might have a lot smaller scar on the back of my hand. Which brings me back to the first sentence Just get it. You just never know.

I highly recommend not making a zero clearance throat plate this way. I now use a 3-4in wide board and long enough to clamp it down on the front and back fence rails that way you don't even have to but your hands on the table.

I was in Timber Hardwoods in Mesa Arizona today looking at the Sawstop. $4100 for the cabinet model with the bells & whistles. About $2700 for the contractor model. That is coming out this month isnt it?

[PaulMarcel]

Timber is where I got mine.

$4100? that would have to be the ICS, correct? The PCS (Professional Cabinet Saw) has 2 versions. The 3 hp is out now and $2900 w/36in fence ($3k for 56in fence). There's a 1.75hp version of the PCS that is less, but I don't know the price; it is currently in pre-order. The 3hp is 220V only, 1.75 is 110V only but otherwise the same. The contractor SS is $1800. I think Brian Q has a contractor so you could ask him how the dust collection is if that interests you.

If you were including as a bell n whistle the overarm dust collection thingy, Brian has a great thread on his DIY version here. I just bought the EMT conduit this afternoon to make my own version as we seem to be swapping ideas

[MikeMc]

Timber is where I got mine.

$4100? that would have to be the ICS, correct? The PCS (Professional Cabinet Saw) has 2 versions. The 3 hp is out now and $2900 w/36in fence ($3k for 56in fence). There's a 1.75hp version of the PCS that is less, but I don't know the price; it is currently in pre-order. The 3hp is 220V only, 1.75 is 110V only but otherwise the same. The contractor SS is $1800. I think Brian Q has a contractor so you could ask him how the dust collection is if that interests you.

If you were including as a bell n whistle the overarm dust collection thingy, Brian has a great thread on his DIY version here. I just bought the EMT conduit this afternoon to make my own version as we seem to be swapping ideas

I think the $4100 would be the top of the line one with a 52" fence, etc. The $2700 is the pre-order price on the contractor version. I think I would rather spend the $2900 and get the PCS 3HP model to ensure I have enough power for the long term but I dont need to buy the ferrari model. Price is not a serious consideration but there are limits.

[Autorotate]

I think the $4100 would be the top of the line one with a 52" fence, etc. The $2700 is the pre-order price on the contractor version. I think I would rather spend the $2900 and get the PCS 3HP model to ensure I have enough power for the long term but I dont need to buy the ferrari model. Price is not a serious consideration but there are limits.

I have the PCS 3hp. and love it. The table is a little smaller than the ICS but for the price difference was not worth it to me. Also the PCS has the wheels part of the saw so when there up the saw is sitting on the ground and not a Mobile base which I like. Dont forget if you buy it you will have to purchase a separate brake Assy. if you you use a dado blade (8in).