Jameel Abraham Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I want to take a few minutes to offer some clarification on what's happening here regarding our lead times and the vises themselves. I am the one responsible for inventory at Benchcrafted, so what I write below, you can be assured of is exactly where things stand here at Benchcrafted. We've been working on a redesign of our handwheels since last October. This includes months of design work, revisions, engineering, and the like. We also have had to make new foundry patterns for both the Tail Vise and Glide Leg Vise handwheels. In order to make this change (and improvement) as seamless and easy as possible for our customers, we've spent lots of time at every step of the process. No other parts of the vise are changing. Installation procedures won't change. In fact, if you currently use a bench with our vises, you'll be able to simply install a vise with our new handwheels without altering your bench at all. So the new handwheels won't affect the Guild Build videos at all, other than how they look. All of Marc's excellent instructions, templates, the Sketchup drawings, plans, everything, it will apply to the new handwheel-equipped vises seamlessly. Again, there are no changes to the vise that affect installation. We've been planning this change to be as painless as possible by giving as much heads-up as we could on our website (including the blog). We also planned it to coincide with the beginning of summer. This time of year is typically a slow time for woodworking, so we thought it would be the best time for this transition. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, so I apologize to those who are disappointed. I genuinely wish we could satisfy everyone. We tried our best to have enough stock on hand of the previous handwheel-equipped vises to satisfy demand, but we can't tell the future, and those sold out before the new handwheels are ready. Our normal lead time is four weeks. As we just ran out of Tail Vises 3 weeks ago, we're still technically a week ahead of that. Our 12-week lead time, as I've stated on our website, is a liberal estimate. We're on target for coming in quite ahead of that (we're machining the new handhweels right now in fact.) As stated on our Guild Build page http://www.benchcraf...Guildbuild.html if you request an invoice before the July 1st deadline, you will, by default, be among the first ones in line when the new handwheel-equipped vises are ready. We're not offering pre-ordering on these at this time through our website, but as Guild members you can send us an invoice request now (follow the instructions on the Benchcrafted Guild Build page), and you'll secure your place at the head of the line. Once we have vises in stock, we'll send out Guild Build invoices immediately. As soon as you pay, we'll ship your vise. But if you wait several days or longer to pay, you risk losing your place. In short, if you've sent us an invoice request, be on the lookout on our blog and website for updates so you can anticipate your invoice coming into your inbox. So, Benchcrafted isn't going anywhere. Our vises aren't changing. The Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo bench has not changed. If you want to build a Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo (which by definition includes our vises, which Chris Schwarz has called "the three best woodworking vises I have ever used") we highly recommend following the Guild Build as Marc has presented it. About alternative hardware. We couldn't be happier that there are many small companies (individuals even) now producing excellent quality hardware from which to choose. For those who can't for some reason use Benchcrafted vises, we heartily recommend vises from other small companies like Lie-Nielsen, Hovarter, Big Wood Vise, Lake Erie, and Lee Valley. They all make excellent quality vises. But I will be frank about purchasing "generic" vises from large, faceless corporations. They are not worth spending your money on (no matter how cheap), not worth wasting fine wood on, not worth your time or effort. They are mass-produced by factories manned by people who most likely know nothing about woodworking. On the other hand, us, and the companies listed above, are ALL manned by people who actually do woodworking on a regular basis. And they all care about what they are producing. As a woodworker myself, that has meaning to me. I can personally be contacted quite easily and will eagerly offer my own advice on what vises would suit your work and bench plans, even if that means those vises are made by these other makers (several of whom I am honored to even call friends.) So these generic vises are in fact, more expensive than our vises for all those reasons. Also, if you choose to outfit your "Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo" with other vises, then the bench is no longer a Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo. Period. I'll be adamant on that point. We're proud of our products. So I hope this has cleared up a few questions some of you may have. Feel free to contact me directly at jameel@benchcrafted.com if you have any questions or concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Jameel probably doesn't need another endorsement, but having completed the Guild build using the Benchcrafted hardware (and even the Scraper) and having completed several projects using the vises, they are great and worth every penny. They are even worth the extra time. In fact, given how well they work I am interested in what the improvements are and is it worth upgrading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I've got one project under my belt with the BC hardware. It really beats my last 'no-name' hardware. The $$ up-front can turn heads, but you need to look at it as $35/year for 20+ years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Thanks for the clarifications Jameel. I have to echo the comments about the Benchcrafted quality. LIke many of the best tools out there, it can hurt when you make the initial purchase, but every time you use it you are reminded of how much value the tool brings to the table. Well, in this case, the bench. I agree with the thoughts on generic hardware. Only problem is I'm feeling the pressure to include these lower cost alternatives based on feedback from Guild members and prospective Guild members. I'm really going to have to give this some serious thought as I really want people to be truly happy with their benches. Perhaps for now, we'll leave well enough alone....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 How hard would it be to retrofit top quality vices onto a table that was initially built with generic hardware? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 From what I've seen, it isn't so bad. The Benchcrafted instructions actually over both new installs and retrofits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 So, if someone builds a bench with inexpensive "starter" vices, they can upgrade later if they are unhappy. The bench can still be used proudly for generations, with upgraded vices at some point. I'm a big fan of low entry costs for a hobby, even if that means getting rid of some inexpensive stuff in a later upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I know some folks have build using non-BC hardware. May be interesting to get some feedback... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onboard Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 ... I agree with the thoughts on generic hardware. Only problem is I'm feeling the pressure to include these lower cost alternatives based on feedback from Guild members and prospective Guild members. I'm really going to have to give this some serious thought as I really want people to be truly happy with their benches. Perhaps for now, we'll leave well enough alone....... After reading Jameel’s post, I see he’s defining “Generic” as “…"generic" vises from large, faceless corporations. They are not worth spending your money on…” as opposed to “…we heartily recommend vises from other small companies like Lie-Nielsen, Hovarter, Big Wood Vise, Lake Erie, and Lee Valley. They all make excellent quality vises.” Based on that recommendation Marc, I think it would be good to restrict the “…lower cost alternatives…” to the “other small companies” as Jameel suggested (and this may be what you had in mind). As far as reviewing the installation of these vises on the split top Roubo workbench build, I don’t see the need to do an extensive video showing how this is done for a half-dozen (or more) vises. I believe each of these companies vises have their own general instructions for installation, so maybe just a review of those instructions and what small changes might have to be implemented on the workbench in place of the Benchcrafted vises. And, as hhh suggested, perhaps there are others who have built their split top Roubo with an alternate vise and would share how they installed their vise. Depending on the quality of feed back, that may be sufficient without your having to do a video. Just my penny per paragraph worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woollymonster Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I have a silly question; what was wrong with the original design that prompted a change/update? From all that I have gleaned from the website, blogs, and forums is that it is just a cosmetic change of the hand wheels. All the other hardware is the same, no? Are the new hand wheels mechanically/functionally superior to the old ones? Sorry if that is a dumb question. I am a little slow sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 That is my understanding as well Woolly. So far, nothing has changed that affects the installation, unless you want to install their new x-brace thingie. The alternatives discussion has been around since the project was announced, but the production delay and current modifications are what kicked it into high gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woollymonster Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hey Marc, I wouldn't break my heart if you did a Richard Maguire wagon vise installation. I have one one the way and it looks almost identical to the Benchcrafted Tail vise except for the wheel. Richard emailed me the instructions and a believe that the rails will not have to be sunk into the slab at all. They will just be screwed to the underside. I have not gotten much done due to a couple of natural disasters around here. Still working on milling my slabs. I already have the Benchcrafted leg vise and can't wait to get back in the shop! Cheers, Woolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johny Sawdust Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I have been making stuff for years without a bench and now that it is time to finally make one, I only want to do it once. I have found that I will forget about the expense and long lead times and any other frustration starting with the first time I use the superior product. If I compromise and do something less than the best, I will suffer every time I use it and end up doubling my effort and spending more money than if I had just done it up perfect the first time. My bench is sitting on the floor not quite finished as I am waiting for the vises to show up before I do any more. This will easily take double the time I budgeted and way more money than I wanted to spend but it will be so worth it. Now I realize I should have joined the guild to get a better place in line... Gotta save money somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTC Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 If anyone is interested in seeing the Split top Roubo with the Lie- Nielsen hardware, I have just finished my bench and did a photo step-by-step www.sawdustandwoodchips.com The folks at Lie-Nielsen were wonderful with their support - for a while we were even exchanging sketches as to how the wagon vise would work. I did use the parallel Guide kit and the benchcrafted bench bolts and of course the BC plans (thankyou BC) Because of the way that I built this bench, if I decide in the future to install the BC hardware I will have little issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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