Pax saws or other reasonable priced panel saws

[Stumpnav]

Give Mark at Bad Axe a call. He can probably set you up with what you need. They will be old and they will be SHARP!

He doesn't keep many of his old saws listed on the website so you need to give him a call. Tell him what you want and why you want it and he can probably hhomyou up.

[G S Haydon]

I also use a hard point saw and find it superb to crosscut and occasional ripping of thin stock. The modern ones cut on forward and rearwards strokes - they never used to - and are extremely sharp.

I do have a problem ripping thicker stock with them though. For instance I had to resaw an oak board that was 6" wide by 2" thick by 3 feet long as my bandsaw had broken. I was making a bookmatch to make 2 6" wide boards 1" ish thick. I don't have a panel rip saw or a bowsaw so used a hardpoint. Man that was hard work but it did it. I really wish they did manufacture western hard point saws designed for ripping. I've not come across them though

I doubt they ever will make one Terry. There is pretty much no market for it, all ripping is done with power in 2" thickness, unless like you had the lights go out! Thankfully a big rip tooth rip saw is the perfect introduction into saw sharpening, easier than a 20tpi dovetail saw anyway!

[rodger.]

Thanks for the great video graham.

Just a thought though - the experienced hands of a master cannot be taken out of the equation here.

For example, I used to work in a guitar shop when I was in my early twenties. The guy who owned it was one of the best guitar players I had ever met. People would bring in all kinds of stuff for him to sell on commission, or for him to repair. One time, a guy brought in this worst POS guitar ever - some knock off strat that was falling apart. The shop owner put some new (cheap) strings on it, tuned it by ear, plugged it in, and made it SING. My jaw dropped and I could believe that the sound was coming from that guitar.

[Eric.]

My draw dropped

 

I'm not sure anyone appreciated that kind of excitement.  Keep your pants on man...it's just music.  LOL

[rodger.]

I'm not sure anyone appreciated that kind of excitement.  Keep your pants on man...it's just music.  LOL

Haha - another victim of autocorrect!

[Tom King]

This seller has listed their last three of these:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sandvik-Tradition-Rip-Hand-Saw-with-24-Blade-Nos-/291465226631?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dcae6987

 

It's sharp enough out of the sleeve to work with.  I recently used one of mine that I haven't sharpened yet to widen the slot in a veneer hammer I was making.  It easily shaved down one side of the slot that I had cut with the old Pax rip saw, that I mistakenly felt like was about the right width for the metal piece I was using for the veneer hammer.

[TerryMcK]

I doubt they ever will make one Terry. There is pretty much no market for it, all ripping is done with power in 2" thickness, unless like you had the lights go out! Thankfully a big rip tooth rip saw is the perfect introduction into saw sharpening, easier than a 20tpi dovetail saw anyway!

I saved the money on buying saw sharpening gear and an old saw by buying spare band saw blades instead

[G S Haydon]

Thanks for the great video graham.

Just a thought though - the experienced hands of a master cannot be taken out of the equation here.

For example, I used to work in a guitar shop when I was in my early twenties. The guy who owned it was one of the best guitar players I had ever met. People would bring in all kinds of stuff for him to sell on commission, or for him to repair. One time, a guy brought in this worst POS guitar ever - some knock off strat that was falling apart. The shop owner put some new (cheap) strings on it, tuned it by ear, plugged it in, and made it SING. My jaw dropped and I could believe that the sound was coming from that guitar.

That's a neat story pug and if I read this right there is a kind inference of mastery on my part. Looks like I fooled you anyway. Trust me, they are ok whether the force is strong with you or not :-). Terry, you chose wisely!

[SteveM]

I guess I would liken the promotion of these hardened saws to the beginner as like the sandpaper/abrasive paper sharpening method. It provides a low cost of entry with acceptable results, but few stick with it in the long run for various reasons. If someone is so strapped for cash that they can't afford an older saw and some files then I'd rather they buy a low cost new saw than nothing at all, but I won't personally endorse such short term methods out of hand.

 

Logical argument:

At my local home center a 20" saw is $20 and is well reviewed by people cutting 1x, 2x, and 4x construction lumber. I've read that they last for about 5 sharpening of the older saws.

 

In my garage workshop I have 3 saws sharpened by Mike Wenzloff so I know what a sharp Disston is like. Two of those I paid about $120 each for ready to go and the third was bought for $5 and I paid Mike $20 to cut new teeth and talked saws while he sharpened it. My fourth saw is a 22" Atkins that I got from an estate for free and was my first attempt at sharpening using an $8 flat file and $6 taper Grobet files that can be used perhaps 20-30 times before wearing out. A new saw set can be had for $25 or a Stanley 42X for perhaps twice that.

 

While I did pay more up front for the saws, files, and saw set, in the time that 5 modern saws would be consumed I could have spent $100 on them or $14 on Grobet files. If I decide that hand saws are not for me some eager person with a fist full of cash will be happy to pay me for my tools.

 

 

Emotional argument:

My very first attempt at saw sharpening by following the techniques learned from online videos didn't result in Wenzloff sharpness, but it wasn't far off and the pride it gave me is priceless. Some day my son's hands will grip those same saw handles and someday perhaps I will have grandchildren reaching for the same saw their crazy old grandfather used to use. I can't put a price tag on that.

[G S Haydon]

Very tidy thoughts there Steve!

[Doomwolf]

It's also worth mentioning that a hard point saw can be used for materials you wouldn't want to run a vintage saw into - MDF, PVC pipe, reclaimed lumber - and you don't have to worry about it getting damaged by your friend who needs to borrow a saw in order to cut her (illegally installed) Christmas tree into pieces small enough to fit down the garbage chute when no one is looking. 

[JimB1]

It's also worth mentioning that a hard point saw can be used for materials you wouldn't want to run a vintage saw into - MDF, PVC pipe, reclaimed lumber - and you don't have to worry about it getting damaged by your friend who needs to borrow a saw in order to cut her (illegally installed) Christmas tree into pieces small enough to fit down the garbage chute when no one is looking.

That sounds like an oddly specific scenario to watch out for LOL....

[ponderingturtle]

It's also worth mentioning that a hard point saw can be used for materials you wouldn't want to run a vintage saw into - MDF, PVC pipe, reclaimed lumber - and you don't have to worry about it getting damaged by your friend who needs to borrow a saw in order to cut her (illegally installed) Christmas tree into pieces small enough to fit down the garbage chute when no one is looking. 

 

Sure, we all know it was a tree that needed cutting not a saw that would cut through bones...

[CStanford]

In furnituremaking, big saws almost always cut wide of either a gauged or incised line and the cut is dressed back to the mark with a plane.  There is no need to spend hundreds of dollars on a saw that will likely never produce a finished cut on a piece of furniture.

[Admiral]

I always get a kick out of saw threads.  And yes, impulse hardened Irwins and such will certainly cut wood, in some cases quite well.  And yes, Wenzloff saws are beautiful (if you can actually get your order filled, lol), and yes, there are many other makers of new saws out there.  But really, most saws made prior to 1950 which were taper ground and hammered will, when properly sharpened and set, perform as good or better than any saw made today (again, talking of hand and panel saws, as joinery saws are a different topic, and those being made now in my view are better than the vintage ones).  And these saws can be found everywhere if you look.  Yes, they will be rusty, but a little elbow grease, and choosing a saw with a straight plate, all the teeth, and not being obsessive about a "perfect" handle (all saws get dropped and horns get chipped), and you will likely be satisfied once it is sharpened and set properly.  And the latter is the real issue.

 

If you are truly going to use hand saws, in my opinion you have to learn how to sharpen and  maintain them, as sending them out gets really, really expensive.  A $250 panel saw has to be sharpened just as much as a prewar Disston (once you initially set it up and sharpen it) you can buy for $25,

 

When I put a saw into working condition, it will take me about 30 minutes of cleaning.  Then you must re-form the teeth to a consistent geometry. You can make a saw vice out of plywood, no big deal, and you need some saw files, and you need a saw set (the LV eclipse knock-offs will do and if you really get into it later you can search out Stanley 42s and 42xs, but you don't really need them at first).  You need to joint the teeth before reforming the geometry, and then when you get your first pass done, joint it again and reshape again (sometimes I have to do it 3 times).  Then you set the teeth, and only then start sharpening.  Sure, you have to practice this, it is a skill, just like sharpening all your edge tools and plane irons, but its certainly not rocket science. But once set up properly, touchups are 10 minutes work, and the satisfaction you get from knowing you can do it cannot be beat.

 

Read Pete Taran's saw sharpening primer here:  http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html   and print it to re-read whilst you are sharpening.

 

Guys who rehab and sell saws tend to focus on the more desirable "Philada" medallian saws, but the "Phila" ones, made from 1917 to 1940, are just as good for journeymen work and will perform very well. Read this:  http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/medv2.html Disston also made saws for Craftsman and if you can find one pre 1960  (look for absence of zip code on covers) they are dandy and can often be found in very good condition, needing only a touch up of sharpening. Sandvik saws are great too. Some of my best users are no-hame "Warrented Superior" as back in the day, most of the steel was pretty good stuff and likely the same used in the better saws.  Again, don't worry so much about the handles, you're a woodworker, modify it if it does not suit your hand.  In the wild, all can be found reasonably if you have the time to hunt them down and cull out the losers, when I sell the culled ones I get $25-$35. Go out, look, see what you can find and give sharpening a try. Otherwise, I would suggest going with impulse hardened saws until you know that you prefer working by hand, throwaways, yes, but they get the job done.