Lee Bussy Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Hiya folks. I've been spending a lot of time just sitting and staring at this project. For as unremarkable as this table is, as bad the shape is, it's likely not a candidate for repair/restore. That being said it's an important family piece so I'm going to do it anyway. I've been pondering the wood species of the various parts and I have some pics here that hopefully show a lot of the detail. There's far too many and they are too big to post here so here they are up on a Google image album: https://picasaweb.google.com/111807419907392952307/DiningroomTableTop?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCL6l5oryvPT2Bg&feat=directlink It seems to me, and I received one somewhat experienced opinion confirming, that the top is quartersawn white oak. Anyone feel that's off? The underneath of the table, the sort of plain wood that sows quite a bit of discoloration in a few pics ... that's a mystery. It's just the veneer on the underside of the table so not crucial, but I'm just curious. Anyone want to hazard a guess? The pedestal seems like red oak. I've never really seen vintage white oak so I am absolutely not sure. Seems strange to use white oak on the top and red oak on the pedestal. Any guesses? Smart money is on the leaves matching one or the other, but they are VERY dark. It is kinda cool how you can see the plane marks on the underside of one of them. I'm replacing the slides with some I got from Osborne which I think will be a nice functional upgrade once it's done. Maybe I can make something from that wood just for posterity but I suspect it's not a particularly good wood. Here's the pics. Any assistance is appreciated! https://picasaweb.google.com/111807419907392952307/DiningroomTable02?authkey=Gv1sRgCKK7l56tiMT-VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 QSRO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 QSRO Should be easier to find, but I hope I can find some veneer with as much character as that one. Here's the reason I thought it might be white: vs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Nope, QSRO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Well, definitely easier to find then. I'll tell ya what ... it's going to be quite a project. The construction of the table is interesting in that the core is exposed .. no banding. Maybe it's not unique but all those years, I mean my whole life in that house growing up, and I never noticed these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Book matched QSRO . Try Joe Woodworkers veneer supply site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Don't let the fleck throw you...you see QS white more often than red but they both have fleck. The giant pores are the giveaway...agree with the guys...definitely red. I'd be inclined to just rebuild the top from scratch out of solid hardwood and refinish the base. Sentimentality aside...that thing is toast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Red Oak has rows of large open pores. White oak has smaller pores in a different pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Nope, QSRO Book matched QSRO . Try Joe Woodworkers veneer supply site. Don't let the fleck throw you...you see QS white more often than red but they both have fleck. The giant pores are the giveaway...agree with the guys...definitely red. Red Oak has rows of large open pores. White oak has smaller pores in a different pattern. Red it is, thanks gents. I guess that makes sense with the red oak base. I'd be inclined to just rebuild the top from scratch out of solid hardwood and refinish the base. Sentimentality aside...that thing is toast. I've been standing in the garage looking at it for a while this evening .. sigh ... you are more than right. There's patch-work to do on the flat surfaces, edges, probably trimming back the edge some to square it. I wish I could save the existing top but there's bubbles all over, missing chunks of veneer, it will never be right. I'd either have to settle for it as it is (and it will deteriorate further over time) or re-do (or re-create) it. It has a bent-wood skirt on the underside, I'm thinking I will be able to salvage that. I'm afraid to take it off for fear the skirt will warp in this humidity. The best I could think of was to put a couple brads in each end and wrap some wire in between across the opening to keep it from moving too much. Of course if I'm scrapping the top I can just use that as a jig to hold it till I'm ready to move it over I guess. When you say re-do the top from solid - do you mean solid + veneer? Or find that much QSRO and build a solid top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Tough call... You can get some nice QSRO veneer for reasonable $$, but your first veneer project should not be something the size of a dining room table... On the other hand, purchasing 6/4 QSRO will be $10/bf... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Tough call... You can get some nice QSRO veneer for reasonable $$, but your first veneer project should not be something the size of a dining room table... On the other hand, purchasing 6/4 QSRO will be $10/bf... Yeah ... that;s why I was hoping you'd say "X is the only way!". From a purely aesthetic standpoint, there is some gorgeous veneer available. I'd want to try to bookmatch the solid if I were to try it. Then of course if I went veneer there's the matter of a solid substrate which ain't free. That's the one thing about peeling the veneer of this table that seems attractive. Of course, that's if I completely ignore the time it takes. At $10/bf I'm looking at >$400 for the top if it's solid 6/4 stock. Because it's round I could save a little by using the board as a substrate only but I'd be inclined to want to use QS for that for the stability too. I don't have a vacuum pump so I'd either have to rig that up or a large caul system or ... I guess I'll go work on the base for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 ==>a large caul system not on a dining room table -- it can be done, but the glue-up would be a nightmare... if you've never done veneer work, i'd either go solid or do some small practice pieces to get the technique down... then spend $400-$1400 for the vacuum setup, then do some more practice pieces... then drop the bookmatch notion and and go solid stock... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Okay, that's sound advice. Since we've veered this far off the original subject (I'm pretty good at that!) you mention 6/4 wood. The table now is a 3/4" top (including veneer). Is 4/4 (I assume the extra 1/4 is for finishing?) a standard thickness? I did find a pretty cool cheat sheet for "typical" furniture dimensions, but nothing about thickness. EDIT: Er ... 6/4 - 1/4 = 5/4 ... is 1-1/4" thick table top. Anyway, theory was the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 By the time you glue up a top that size and flatten both sides it could be close to 1" thick depending on how carefully you glue it up. Maybe you could find a local cabinet or custom furniture shop to make the top for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 By the time you glue up a top that size and flatten both sides it could be close to 1" thick depending on how carefully you glue it up. Maybe you could find a local cabinet or custom furniture shop to make the top for you? If I did that then it would not have been done by the adult version of the kid that sat there - this part means a lot to me. So a 1" table top is a good target in general? I suppose it doesn't really matter a lot if it/s 1/8" either way because it doesn't have to match anything. The leaves are in such poor shape I'll be making new ones so I can plane them to match whatever the table ends up at. We have a 4' wide sander at the guild so I think (maybe this is me being naive) that making two 2'x4' glue-ups won't be too hard - then I can run them through the sander. I suppose after that I'd tack them together with some scrap cleats and cut the circle with either a router or on the band saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 If you really wanted to veneer a large piece like that, could you not clamp it between a flat surface and a bunch of sand bags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 So here's an option: http://www.vandykes.com/red-oak-round-table-top/p/204455/ $311.99 for a 48" diameter top in 2 pieces. Problem is it looks like it's flat-sawn so ... that much PLUS veneering .. sigh. I'm gonna have to go kicking tires and see what I can find. If I go with making a new top there's always just using Baltic Birch ply and then veneer. Not really sure how that would "feel" though. It would be less than half the price of the oak core. I may move this to a different thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Veneering a top that size even if you do it in 2 pieces will require an investment in equipment and plenty of practice. Take a look at tablelegs.com they offer to build solid tabletops to your specs. Maybe they could build one out of QS red oak for you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Veneering a top that size even if you do it in 2 pieces will require an investment in equipment and plenty of practice. Practice for sure ... equipment, maybe not so bad. I found this place in a Popular Woodworking article: http://www.roarockit.com/tap-kits-bags-and-parts $100 for a kit that will do a table half (36" x 52"). Maybe not as durable as some of the other stuff, but (famous last words incoming) how many times will I do this? Take a look at tablelegs.com they offer to build solid tabletops to your specs. Maybe they could build one out of QS red oak for you ? A 44" round table top (largest they list) in white ( $364.13) or red ($330.79) oak, at 1" thickness is still not QS. I also had a look at VanDykes for another option. Surfaced red oak 4/4 tabletop blanks, 49" x 25" = $196.99 each (393.98 for a pair). Now if I still want to consider veneer and I can make myself use something that's a non-oak core, readytocover.com has a 48" round tabletop for $156.00 with free shipping. When it's said and done, I think there will be a bit more satisfaction out of making it myself. Jointing and edge gluing is within my comfort level by a hefty margin - certainly WAY more so than veneering which I've never done. Throw in 3 new table leaves and that's 25 BF. I'm in for maybe $300 of lumber with some judicious board choices, not horrible. Of course if I can't get good board choices that could go up a bit ... how much waste y'all figure in for stuff like this? This is where being in the guild here in KC will really help - they have everything I don't in the way of equipment. I think that's going to be my plan. Woodworker Source (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/) has QS white oak at $8.99/BF with free shipping. I think I can get a better match between old growth red oak and new growth white oak with proper dying ... not sure though. I may have to test that out. So far I've not found QSRO but I'll keep looking. I realize this thread has gone around in circles - You all have helped me immensely even if it looks like I took your answer and went a different direction. It caused me to search and research more - and I've learned a lot. So what do you think ... is this a plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 ==>could you not clamp it between a flat surface and a bunch of sand bags? I'm lothe to say no, because I know you can... But I'll say no... -- it's after 5:00pm :) OK, let me sober-up a bit. Yes you can... But (and it's a big but), the odds of inconsistent adhesive bonding is high... I suppose if you used UF adhesive -- scratch that -- if you use 105/207, maybe get enough working time (40mins) to make it happen... Remember, you've got a big sandwich and the clock is ticking. Important: You’ve got to do both sides at the same time... You’ve got to assemble the sandwich, put some sort of barrier down on both sides (I use wax paper on small stuff and 4x8 sheets of melamine for large), attach fairly thick cauls (3/4 BB comes to mind), secure it with screws, then start applying clamps and center-load... I know it’s done, but I don’t know anyone who does it that way... I’d rather go old-school and hand-hammer HHG... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 I don't know why you would mess with veneering when you could just buy some lumber, glue it together, flatten, sand, finish, drink beer. It's just oak. If you were using some ancient bog koarosewoodhogany that you paid a zillion dollars for...different story. But it's just oak. Even QS doesn't cost that much. Makes no sense to overcomplicate and still not save any money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 I don't know why you would mess with veneering when you could just buy some lumber, glue it together, flatten, sand, finish, drink beer. It's just oak. If you were using some ancient bog koarosewoodhogany that you paid a zillion dollars for...different story. But it's just oak. Even QS doesn't cost that much. Makes no sense to overcomplicate and still not save any money. That's pretty much where I am now ... I found a place that will deliver 40 BF of 4/4 quartersawn red, $172 shipped. Here's the description: This is a 40 board feet pack of 4/4 quartersawn red oak hardwood lumber. The lumber is FAS grade, hit/miss planed to 15/16 thick, kiln dried, rough edges, random width typically 5-9" wide and random length 3-5' long. This material has nice flecking and prized by cabinetmakers especially those doing work in the arts and craft period. Pretty sure I'd be able to get 25 FB @ =>48" long out of 40 BF ... doncha think? What's "hit/miss planed to 15/16 thick"? I mean, is it 15/16 or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 It's planed on both sides but some rough saw marks still need to be planed out. Let's you glue up a panel and remove the saw marks from the better face as you flatten it and thus leave you with a thicker final top. No need to remove all the saw marks from the underside if you don't want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 It's planed on both sides but some rough saw marks still need to be planed out. Let's you glue up a panel and remove the saw marks from the better face as you flatten it and thus leave you with a thicker final top. No need to remove all the saw marks from the underside if you don't want to. Thank you sir. Sounds like I can get 3/4" smoothed on both sides with clean living and some luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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