estesbubba Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 I'm making a 2' x 8' vanity top out of hard maple. I sanded to 220, wet well to raise the grain, then sanded again with 220. I'm using General Finishes water-based stain which worked great on test boards. I applied as recommended using a foam brush. I put a liberal amount down and worked a 2' x 2' section keeping the leading edge wet. I then removed the excess with paper towels and moved to the next section. I worked as fast as I could but still got overlap marks. This stuff is pretty thick and likes to foam. My shop was about 60 and I turned all fans off when applying. What am I doing wrong? Would thinning it with water give longer working time or make it worse? I've applied plenty of aniline water dyes in the past and they have a lot longer working time than this stuff. Trying to fix areas just makes it worse. Any ideas? I'm wondering if a paint roller would work? Obviously I have a coat on the top and need to figure out how to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Foam paint ppad. Do whole thing and then go at it with a roll of paper towels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted April 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 I also see they have foam rollers. I'll go check them and the pads out. Probably best to sand the majority of the existing stain off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 See if it rewets before sanding. RTM video the retail stuff works the same but alot easier to prevent streaking. http://youtu.be/liaJGnOHnZE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted April 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 How do I see if it rewets? Spray some water on it and wipe with paper towels or apply another coat of stain on top? Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopnhack Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Yes, the GF waterbased stain will re-dissolve in water and some of the stain will lift. You may not get all of it off, but you may be able to blend several areas for a more even look. I did a smaller table in an orange stain for the kids to play on and it too had minor lap lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Do you have a pic of the problem? Larger surfaces it's best to use General Finishes "extender" slows the dry. Or prior to staining, wet the wood with some water. Large surfaces you need to shit and get, ya gotta move like a mad man! I like those staining pads you get at Woodcraft. Looks like what comes in a can of car wax. Has a sponge inside terry-cloth outside. How about next time load that new Earlex 5500 spray gun with stain. So spray gun in one hand pad in the other wiping it back. If lap marks are "bad" you can take some 320 foam backed paper and gently scuff the surface lightly to even back out. Now, after you re-applied your stain. You can make a shader concentrate. I like equal parts water and General Finishes High Performance (assuming that is your topcoat for your project) then add 1/2 to 1 tsp of your stain you already applied to the wood, mix it up and spray. This helps to blend and equalize any unevenness. Or you can apply 1 coat of finish over your stain (again water-based GF HP or water-based Lacquer) and once dry use the stain to glaze. This will also even out your color. Now I will tell you...stay in the General Finishes family doing this. I have used the High Performance and Lacquer water-based topcoats to make a shader with no problems. Between steps, make sure everything has had time to fully dry!!!!!! Hope this helps...... -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 ==> RTM video the retail stuff works the same but alot easier to prevent streaking. nice video... thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 How do I see if it rewets? Spray some water on it and wipe with paper towels or apply another coat of stain on top? Thanks for the help. Just use stain. Some colors seems rewet better than other. Some colors seem thicker than others. They add something to make it a slight gel. I did the entie outside of this cabinet 24x48 in one shot with shop at 70. It fills paper towels quick just keep wiping but wipe the whole thing at once dont try to do a section at a time. Just wipe the whole top get a clean towel, wipe whole top get a clean towel...... The best way I can explain it. This keeps everything wet an even. If you see streaking use one of your finis soaked paper towels to wipe over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 One more tip GF stains seem to be pretty universally compatible as a toner in a variety of top coats. This cabinet was shot last night with left over Target em2000 mixed 10% GF black just eyeballed. I'm doing one right now with the same mix but with min wax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frank Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 One more tip GF stains seem to be pretty universally compatible as a toner in a variety of top coats. This cabinet was shot last night with left over Target em2000 mixed 10% GF black just eyeballed. I'm doing one right now with the same mix but with min wax.image.jpg Particle Board...nice job. This is a real interesting topic. Could you take a picture side by side with the other cabinet your working on. Like to see the result, that general stuff is expensive and never used target brand. I like min wax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Particle Board...nice job. This is a real interesting topic. Could you take a picture side by side with the other cabinet your working on. Like to see the result, that general stuff is expensive and never used target brand. I like min wax. Here ya go, almost dry. Bad pic but you can't quite tell them apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frank Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 they are bad that glue thing you madee you made, those were nicer pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 PB - you were right on with the foam pad advice. When I looked at the top the next day, while trying to blend the bad areas it actually had buffed it to a slight gloss. I did a quick sanding 80-220 with my Festool, wet the wood good, then sanded by hand with 220. I got a 7" foam pad from Home Depot and stained the entire top in about 2 minutes. I also had the stain can above my heater which thinned it and seemed reduce the foaming. I put a good wet coat on and didn't waste any time getting it off with paper towels. Definitely a learning curve with these water-based products. I've done a dozen test boards but nothing can prepare you for a top this big. Good news is it was an easy re-sand and I'm back in business. Much better now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopnhack Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Hey Mike, looks good! What color did you use? Merlot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 GF brown mahogany. It looks real nice with a finish on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopnhack Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Yes it sure does!! Great finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rglissmann Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Flooding the surface and letting it evaporate without blotting the stain off can help prevent lap marks. Of course this only works for horizontal surfaces. I have a blog post on spraying water-based dyes here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Randy, to clear things up. Your blog is discussing dyes, this thread is about stains. So your saying this works good for stains too? -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rglissmann Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Let me clarify. Stains can be either pigment or dye based or both. Pigment particles (the basis of paint) are much larger than dye and are typically used with wood species like oak that have a grain pattern into which the pigment will lodge. The initiator of this thread said he was using maple which has minimal grain, so pigment stain won't work well. Dyes work much better on woods like maple, poplar, and birch as they will be absorb into the surface of the wood. I assume that GF may consist of both pigment and dye. I'm guessing that it is mostly the dye portion that is coloring the wood. -Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Let me clarify. Stains can be either pigment or dye based or both. Pigment particles (the basis of paint) are much larger than dye and are typically used with wood species like oak that have a grain pattern into which the pigment will lodge. The initiator of this thread said he was using maple which has minimal grain, so pigment stain won't work well. Dyes work much better on woods like maple, poplar, and birch as they will be absorb into the surface of the wood. I assume that GF may consist of both pigment and dye. I'm guessing that it is mostly the dye portion that is coloring the wood. -Randy You would have a mess with the gf retail version as a spray no wipe. It is sort of a cross between a gel stain and a wiping stain. Not sure what would happen if thinned enough to try that. They have a line of die stains and rtm that can be used as a spray no wipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rglissmann Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Agreed. You would never be able to spray a gel stain. I mentioned spraying dye as a solution to coloring wood and avoiding lap marks. I typically use TransTints for spraying. -Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 It's water based stain, not a gel stain. Yes, General Finishes retail water-based stains will spray, actually quite nice. I would not recommend applying a General Finishes water-based stain on to dry without wiping it back. That would be terrible. -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Agreed. You would never be able to spray a gel stain. I mentioned spraying dye as a solution to coloring wood and avoiding lap marks. I typically use TransTints for spraying. -Randy Its not really a gel but thickened almost like really diluted gel stain. You can spray but have to wipe. The dye stains and rtm can be sprayed no wipe. They dont give the appearance of wb dyes more so a solid if that makes sense. Agreed just plain wb dyes work well on maple, poplar and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 I love Transtint dye -Ace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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