Pbmaster11 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 In the market for a new sander. Debate initiated. I like how compact and light the mirkas are. Heard nothing but great reviews for festool. Have not heard much on mirkasTyping on cell phone. I apologize for any typing errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Woodguy Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I'll assume an ETS sander vs the Ceros here, the Rotex's would have a different opinion from me, and I'll give my two cents on the 125 as that's what I own along with a Ceros. Pros for the 125: light, compact, not obscenely expensive (for Festool), and if you already have a Festool ecosystem going, the sander swaps right into the cord / hose of other tools. Cons are that the unit is louder, and not terribly aggressive (it is a gentle finish sander, after all), so anyone thinking it will hog wood like other RO units are sorely going to be disappointed. On the other side, the Mirka Ceros pros: it can be as gentle or as aggressive as you want it to be, the unit is indeed light and you're closer to the action with a lower center of gravity. Works with all kinds of sandpaper (and their sandpaper works with all kinds of sanders). It is much more quiet, but consider the noise of whatever dust collecting vac you have in addition to the sander. Nice long cord from the transformer to the sander. The primary con is easily the price. Because the action is lower as I said, vibration to the hand is a little more likely than the ETS, but only a little, the Ceros still feels good. I would rather have flippable power switches and dials rather than the buttons for the power/speed. The transformer box is sort of a pain, but put it in a permanent spot somewhere and it's no big deal. On dust collection, I would rate the Festool just a tad higher, namely as occasionally I've found there will be a slight dust cloud that comes up from the Ceros once it touches wood the first time, but past that point, both are excellent at collection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I’ve got all the CEROS sanders, several Mirka pneumatics and all the FTs. Both the FT and CEROS are available in several orbits, so it’s important to compare like to like. FT RoS is available in a 5 and 3mm, while CEROS is available in 8, 5, and 2.5mm. Not all sanders are available in all sales regions. In summary, the FTs are excellent electric sanders with great DC and generally run smoother than the competition (especially the 150/3 and to a lesser extent the 125/3). If you are familiar with pneumatic sanders, the CEROS are about as close as you can get to an air sander with an electric motor… Like the pneumatics, Mirka’s are small, light, nimble and very smooth. While the CEROS DC is good, the FTs are better. Now, this is good and bad. As owners of FT’s ETS line know, even at the lowest DC setting, you can still get chatter – especially with the ETS150/5 -- especially if you run your panels through a drum/wide-belt sander... When the surface is very flat, the ETS line can chatter even with a CT set on lowest-possible setting (turtle). Doesn't happen with the CEROS, because the suction isn't quite as good... It’s one reason the CEROS is displacing FT in my shop. The CEROS is very powerful (much more powerful than any non-Rotex FT). The CEROS 6”/8mm can really remove stock, strip paint, whatever --- it’s not as powerful as the Rotex 150, but the Mirka is powerful and smooth while the Rotex is not… I eBayed my Rotex 125 and Rotex 150 after I got the Mirkas. The CEROS 2.5mm sanders have a smoother action than any FT – full stop. The CEROS 5mm sanders are basically on-par with the /3 and /5 members of the FT ETS line. ETS150/3 is tad smoother than the CEROS 5mm…. Not sure about the 125/3 – I think it’s pretty much a tie, but the 5"/5mm CEROS is a lot lighter and you feel everything --- and the mass of the ETS125 may absorb some vibration and make it appear smoother than it actually is... The issue is obviously cost. But one thing, if you go ETS, you really need both the /5 for rough and /3 for finish sanding. If you go CEROS, the 5mm can do both – it’s powerful for rough stock removal like the ETS/5 and has an action almost as smooth as the ETS/3 for finish work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Haven't tried a Ceros but my I bought my ETS 150/3 in 2007. It gets daily use in my cabinet shop. I have to replace the hook and loop pad every few years but the sander is like the Energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going..... It does a great job and has held up for years. I used to get about 3 or 4 years out of a Bosch random orbit before it died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 What's the compatibility like between the CEROS sanders and the FT extractors/hoses etc? I've never had a Mirka sander in my hand, but I've been tinkering with the idea for a while. I like the 150/3 for sanding in the higher grits, but it seems to take too long to get anywhere with initial 80 grit sanding and 120. I use a lot of exotics so this may be a factor. Will the CEROS cut faster than the 150/3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 ==>I like the 150/3 for sanding in the higher grits, but it seems to take too long to get anywhere with initial 80 grit sanding and 120. Yea, the 150/3 is a purpose-made fine orbit (3mm) finish sander. I only use it for 150 and up. For rough-to-mid sanding, the 150/5 is much better suited to the task... The 'standard' Mirka 6" is a 5mm orbit -- same as 150/5, so it'll remove stock fairly quickly. However, the CEROS 6"/5 is much smoother than the ETS 150/5 and almost as smooth as the 150/3. The CEROS 6"/8mm is a beast -- it's for what Charles Neil terms, "Construction Sanding" -- anything up to 80grit. It runs about as smooth as the ETS 150/5 but can remove stock almost as fast as the Rotex 150. ==>What's the compatibility like between the CEROS sanders and the FT extractors/hoses etc? That's the weakness -- they are not compatible... And it's the only real drawback to using a CEROS in a FT-centric portable tool shop (like mine)... You can go two routs -- the Fein adapter or what I did... I encased the CEROS hose/cord in nylon mesh cable sleeve with shrink sleeve on both ends to keep it in place. Note: I posted the McMaster-Carr part numbers and photos on another thread, if you're interested... I then mounted the transformer in a systainer along with a small power whip and put on top of a CT/26 vac... The CT/26 has a boom-arm and workcenter accessories (the CEROS sanders hang from the workcenter).... On the boom-arm, I mount a 36mm FT hose and CEROS power whip -- also encased in nylon mesh sleeve and shrink-tubed... The power whip and 36mm hose terminate at the end of the boom-arm. So the CT/26/boom-arm is always plugged-in to the transformer and DC --- ready for a CEROS. Note, I sent the design to Mirka and got a ton of free Abranet Note: I have exactly the same setup for the FT sanders on a separate CT/26/boom-arm. I sent the design to FT, but didn't get a thing So when I want to use the CEROS, I just plug both the power and DC in at the end of the boom-arm (where the whips terminate) and sand-away. Since both the boom-arm cords and CEROS attachments are in nylon mesh sleeve, there's nothing to tangle. Also, the nylon sleeve eliminates the corrugated hose from getting 'hung-up' on the edge of the piece I'm sanding. The other benefit is the FT DC hose sometimes leaves surface scuffing on the piece I'm sanding, and the nylon sleeve doesn't. Note: I also encase all my FT hose with plug-it power cables in nylon sleeve. It's nice for the TS/55 -- the corrugated hose doesn't get hung-up on the track or edge of the sheet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbmaster11 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Pictures!Typing on cell phone. I apologize for any typing errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I have the ETS 150/5 and it is smooth and leaves a great finish. I would disagree that if you have a 150/5 then you also need a 150/3 for finish sanding as mine leaves a great surface. Bob Marino's advice when I was looking was to get the 150/3 if a Rotex was in my future, otherwise get the 150/5. He said with proper sanding technique it's hard to tell the difference between the 150/5 and 150/3. I run my CT26 at about 25% with the 150/5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 ==> I would disagree that if you have a 150/5 then you also need a 150/3 for finish sanding as mine leaves a great surface. Have you actually used both the 150/5 and 150/3 side-by-side for any length of time? It's patently obvious the 150/5 and 150/3 are not the same animal... While you can certainly leave a good surface with the 150/5, it much easier with a purpose-made finish sander like the 150/3. The 150/5 is classed as a mid-grit sander from about 80-150... FT's construction sander is the Rotex-series. For years, FT marketed the Rotex as all things to all people. They spent a fortune on talking heads to use them in podcasts, project classes, review videos, magazine 'reviews' (read as paid advertising), etc... But they do nothing well (the 90mm has it's uses) ... There is a huge secondary market for Rotex -- with many of the first guys who bought them now selling them... ==>Pictures! OK, I'll dig up the photos and re-post. One other mounting option. One clever guy over on FOG mounted the transformer on the back of his CT26 where you would mount the tool holder -- great idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 This is a great thread. I didn't know what made sanders different... I've heard the terms "finish sander" and such before but didn't know it had to do tl with the sweep of the orbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 ==>didn't know it had to do tl with the sweep of the orbit. Orbit is only one factor, the other is how smoothly the sander operates.... For an electric DA sander, the size of the orbit generally gives an indication of how the sander is targeted: Construction, Medium or Finish... Orbit/RPM is more tied-to rate of stock removal and not necessarily to how smoothly the sander operates. Obviously, you want faster stock removal using a 'construction' sander than when you use a 'fine finish' sander. So a construction sander will have a large orbit and high RPM, while a fine-finish sander will remove stock in a more controlled manor and have either a finer orbit and/or controllable RPM... But it's not 100% about orbit -- it's also about how smooth the sander operates... Ex. you could have a tight-orbit sander, but lacks a smooth action and/or vibrates badly -- it would be a terrible finish sander... For example, you can have a Dynabrade 5mm-orbit DA (which was my go-to for years) that leaves a much finer finish than a 3mm BORG 'finish' sander... That's what really makes selecting a sander difficult. Like many things in tools, you get what you pay for... A purpose-made finish sander will have a fine orbit to control stock removal, but also operate very smoothly with little vibration. To get the smooth action and vibration dampening, sometimes the tool is designed with a slightly larger orbit... It's kind of a trade-off. However, speed of stock removal in a DA is more directly tied to orbit and RPM -- the larger the orbit and/or the faster the RPM, the faster the stock removal. Pneumatic sanders operate at around 12K RPM and can remove stock very quickly and have a very smooth action -- so you get the best of both worlds... The CEROS almost delivers the same action as a pneumatic DA, but not quite. The CEROS can also run around 10-12K RPM, so it can remove stock very quickly. Side Note: Folks continually wonder why FT markets the RS/2E sander when the ETS line is DA, and therefore, 'so much better'... And why FT markets an orbital sander for the 'finest' work? Answer -- veneer-topped tables (well, one answer anyway)... The sander has a very fine stroke and adjustable RPM to control stock removal and very smooth action. When used properly, the sander just glides across the surface replacing the scratch pattern of the mid-grit RoS. The sander is the go-to for finish sanding by the veneer-top-table crowd... When adjusted properly with correct DC settings, the RS/2S is almost like running the sander on an 'air-hockey' table (if you've ever played air hockey)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I have not used the 150/5 and 150/3 side by side, but I don't need a better finish than the 150/5 leaves. If it looks good after wiping down with mineral spirits and looking at angles in bright lights, it's going to be just fine inside a house with a lot less light. I did a lot of research and chose the 150/5 for my purposes and have absolutely no regrets. There's no right answer but here is an example post that helped my decision: I had the chance of taking a workshop "spraying H?O based finishes". Learned some very interesting stuff. There where representatives of 3M, Festool, Rupes and Zweihorn. Rupes makes sanders and dustextractors, high quality stuff just like Festool and Zweihorn is a part of the Akzo Nobel group and they make paint and clear coat. They all had there toys with them, and we got to play around with them, when the question came which one to choose the 5mm or the 3mm, they were unanimous: 5mm Let me clarify. We're talking about finishing wood. If you use the same grid on both machines the swirl marks will be equally deep they will just be further apart from each other. When we are talking about wood, which normally gets a coating thickness of 100-150 microns, they will give exactly the same result. Why then choose the 5mm, the paper will last longer and you get a better dust collection. We of course tried both sanding techniques before spraying and the panels were identical in finish and gloss. In the automotive industry thats a different story because they work with much thinner layers. http://festoolownersgroup.com/finishing/ets-1503-or-ets-1505-the-definitive-answer/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 ==>>>^^ As the post reflects, the 150/5 taps-out around 150-100u -- depending on paper type, material being abraded, DC setting, technique, etc.. That's somewhere between 120 and 180g abrasive -- internally, FT says around 150 - depending on paper, surface and correct DC setting... However, there's lots of situations where you sand 180 and higher. There's a reason FT makes both the 150/5 and 150/3 - different tools for different jobs. When looking at 180 and up, the 150/5 is not the best tool for the job... Not that it can't work, just that technique becomes more of a factor and FT makes a purpose-made sander: the 150/3 -- which taps-out around 20u (600g). Same reason you might have a rip and cross-cut saw -- not that you can't use one for the other, it's just each is better suited for a given task... You also have inter-coat leveling -- not to mention finishing the finish. That's a long long way from 100-150u. All deference to the 'experts' over on FOG, but 150u-100u is a long way from 20u (semi-gloss) or 4u (high-gloss) and the 150/5 isn't the best tool to get you there... Again, FT makes several sanders in the same pad size for a reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Woodguy Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 What's the compatibility like between the CEROS sanders and the FT extractors/hoses etc? That's some sort of hose adapter I got somewhere (Marino, maybe?) that plugs into the larger hose, essentially allowing tools with only the smaller dust port - like the Domino, sanders - to use the larger hose. Otherwise, my setup is somewhat similar to HHH's, with the hose and sander's cord connected to the overhead boom arm. The one flaw to this plan is that you have to take the end off the hose in order to screw it into the Ceros, and whenever I need to use the Domino or something, I have to detach this from the Ceros since I only have one of these. My future plan is either an actual Ceros adapter allowing hose connection, or I make pick up a Mirka hose and add a blastgated Y with both hoses to the dust collector. The funny thing about the Festool hose is even when overhead, it feels stiff and heavy for the Ceros, whereas it didn't always necessarily feel that way when using the ETS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 ==>I make pick up a Mirka hose and add a blastgated Y with both hoses to the dust collector I was thinking about that -- I bought a 'Y', but never tried it out. ==>The funny thing about the Festool hose is even when overhead, it feels stiff and heavy for the Ceros Yea, I initially tried the FT anti-static hose with the CEROS using the Fein adapter -- NFG. The Mirka hose is a lot lighter... It's diameter tapers along it's length and more flexible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Shot some photos of my CEROS setup... The nylon cable sleeve keeps the electric and DC bundled together. It allows the hose/cable assembly to easily slide across the surface of your project without hanging-up or scuffing the surface. The nylon sleeve is held in place with a 6" length of heat-shrink tube at either end. When using Mirka's DC hose, the electric cable is about a foot longer than the DC connector which leaves the perfect amount of play in the connection to the transformer. Transformer is mounted to the DC. The Mirka hose is anti-static, much lighter than FT's hose and much more flexible... I use the identical setup for Festool's plug-it cord and DC hose. All FT kit that use a plug-it setup are connected this way -- jigsaws, track saws, routers, etc. The setup is ideal for the TS-55/75 -- the mesh doesn't get hung-up on the guide rail like the DC hose. The only exceptions are the 2200 big-mama router and the 93 detail sander -- both of which have permanent cords -- actually, I think there is one more, but I can't remember which tool... McMaster-Carr Parts: Shrink Tube: 7132HK524 Mesh Sleeving: 9284K518 Note for the CEROS: get the Mirka hose. It's much lighter than FT's offering and is the same length as the sander's cord. Yea it's another $45, but why pay a premium for a light/nimble sander and then attach it to a heavy FT hose that snags on your project if you even breath on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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