Please Help A Newbie Build His Norm Abrams Inspired "Ultimate Router Table"

[mikem]

Someone needs to confirm but I was under the impression that the top of the ring insert part on Incra was aluminum. Would be safer in case the spinning bit accidentally contacted it somehow. At any rate, typically inserts require some sort of tool to remove them. Not sure if still up, but I'm pretty sure Marc did some sort of live segment on different router lift types if interested.

Off the top of my head, the one company to watch out for as far as odd router table / plate sizes is Rockler stuff.

 

The incra inserts are not aluminum, but are steel.  I thought about that issue for awhile as well.  First, I always make sure that I choose an insert that the whole bit will go through.  Following that guideline, just about the only way a spinning bit can come in contact with the insert is if the bit breaks.  At that point, you have bigger issues.  The insert is held by 4 rare earth magnets and perfectly fits the opening.  There is zero chance the insert can come loose during operation of the router.

 

Strictly technically speaking, it is possible to get the inserts out without a tool, but using an allen wrench makes them pop out easily.  

 

I believe the video you are referencing was a guild live session, though it may have been eventually put on the free site.

[TheWoodShouter]

So would you suggest the Incra lift over the JessEm lift then or not? And if you still need a tool of some kind to remove the insert anyway - I also read a small screwdriver or brad would also work - is this feature even worth it?

 

Thanks!

 

-TWS

[TheWoodShouter]

I'd say use a chamfer bit for the edges of the laminated top. Flush trim bit for flushing anything. Can't remember off the top of my head what Norm did on the fence, but if it's just T-track, securing t track isn't complicated, a single dado should suffice.

Thank you, but I also thought about using a flush trim bit to make my hardwood edging perfectly flat to the top. For this, I must have a bit long enough to cut the 3/4" thick edging I'll be using, but I think the kit I linked to above will cover everything I want to do here and more. And in the video, Norm routes a slot for the star nuts or knobs and bolts that hold the fence to the table top and make it movable. I think he's using two sized straight bits here, but I'm not sure.

 

Thanks!

 

-TWS

[wdwerker]

I would get fewer bits that are better made. Whiteside makes quality affordable bits. Freud and Amana are good too but can cost more.

The bits you linked to will work , but I doubt they will last or stay sharp as long as Whiteside bits do. For basic utility bits that you will use repeatedly get quality.

If you need a certain profile that you might rarely use in the future then buying an economy bit makes good sense. Except for large diameter bits. I want the best balanced bit made of high grade steel for something over 1 3/4" in diameter. It is possible to break a bit and it can scare the crap out of you so take all the precautions you can.

[Beechwood Chip]

I found Marc's router table demo video - it was on the Guild (paid) site.

[Beechwood Chip]

Others may disagree, but I'd recommend getting an inexpensive set of 10 to 20 commonly used router bits.  They won't stay sharp long, but when you are in the middle of a project and find you need a bit, it's nice to have it on hand.  Also, that allows you to experiment and see what the different bits can be used for.  And, when things don't go as planned and you start improvising, you've got more things that you can try.  Then, when a bit gets dull, you know that's a bit that you use often, so replace it with a high quality bit.  Consider the set to be for test driving, not for serious use.

 

I wouldn't get a whole set of flush trim bits this early - just get the one you'll need.

 

To make a T-slot you use a straight bit to hog out most of the slot.  You may as well get a good quality up spiral bit - this is one you'll use often.  If you get it with a bearing, it's your flush trim bit, too.  Then to cut the T-slot you use ... wait for it ... you'll be shocked ... a T-slot cutting bit.

[TheWoodShouter]

I would get fewer bits that are better made. Whiteside makes quality affordable bits. Freud and Amana are good too but can cost more.

The bits you linked to will work , but I doubt they will last or stay sharp as long as Whiteside bits do. For basic utility bits that you will use repeatedly get quality.

If you need a certain profile that you might rarely use in the future then buying an economy bit makes good sense. Except for large diameter bits. I want the best balanced bit made of high grade steel for something over 1 3/4" in diameter. It is possible to break a bit and it can scare the crap out of you so take all the precautions you can.

Hmmm, I thought those MLCS bits were considered to be pretty good. Not the best like Freud, but not the cheapest of Chinese made bits (though they are made in China). The other bits I was talking about I had planned on getting Freud, so if it's that much better I'll get one or two Freud flush trim bits as well.

 

Thanks, wdwerker!

 

-TWS

[TheWoodShouter]

Others may disagree, but I'd recommend getting an inexpensive set of 10 to 20 commonly used router bits.  They won't stay sharp long, but when you are in the middle of a project and find you need a bit, it's nice to have it on hand.  Also, that allows you to experiment and see what the different bit can be used for.  And, when things don't go as planned and you start improvising, you've got more things that you can try.  Then, when a bit gets dull, you know that's a bit that you use often, so replace it with a high quality bit.  Consider the set to be for test driving, not for serious use.

 

I wouldn't get a whole set of flush trim bits this early - just get the one you'll need.

 

To make a T-slot you use a straight bit to hog out most of the slot.  You may as well get a good quality up spiral bit - this is one you'll use often.  If you get it with a bearing, it's your flush trim bit, too.  Then to cut the T-slot you use ... wait for it ... you'll be shocked ... a T-slot cutting bit.

I had actually been considering the set of 15 MLCS router bits in the wooden case as my "starter set" I had thought these would be an OK entry level set, then I could see what I used often and then replace thhose bits with higher quality, but I've already been warned about the quality of the MLCS bits, so I'm not sure. For the flush trim bit, can I get one with a larger - say 3/4"+ - cutting surface so that I can use it to trim my 3/4" hardwood edging, and would that bit aso work to trim the laminate material too? I was thinking I'd need at least two flush trim bits, one for the laminate material and one for the hardwood edging. Can I get one bit to perform both tasks?

 

For the T-slots, at a much later part of the video Norm uses a T-slot cutting bit after "hogging out" most of the material with a pass through the dado blade on the table saw. I understand that. But in the video I watch, at 9:10 into it he cuts a slot for bolts that will hold the fence upright, and to do this he make one cut on the bottom of the table top that accommodates the bolt head. He then turns the table top over and finishes this slot with a smaller bit that accommodates the bolt itself. I'm pretty sure he's using two different sized straight bits of some kind to do this, but I'm not sure.

 

Here's the NYW video I've been watching. If you could just check at about 9 minutes and 10 seconds into it, you'll see what I'm talking about:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V0fLf3hoQk

 

Thanks for your help!

 

-TWS

[Dan S]

The other bits I was talking about I had planned on getting Freud, so if it's that much better I'll get one or two Freud flush trim bits as well.

 

-TWS

If you have the option get Whiteside bits, they are a lot better than Freud bits. For some reason the bearings on Whiteside bits always lasts a lot longer. If your an amazon prime member you can get an excellent deal on them.

[TheWoodShouter]

I found Marc's router table demo video - it was on the Guild (paid) site.

Darn again. I am not (yet) a paid guild member, I thought I'd see how this forum goes, and then I'd maybe consider the guild membership. For now, I guess I'll have to research router lifts elsewhere.

 

Thanks for the follow up about that!

 

-TheWoodShouter

[Dan S]

TheWoodShouter,

for flushing the edging, id recommend either of these two bits.

good - http://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-Router-Bits-2407-Diameter/dp/B000K2EEDM/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1411913911&sr=1-1&keywords=whiteside+2407

best - http://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-UDFT5152-Compression-Spiral-Router/dp/B000M35UWI/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1411913997&sr=1-1&keywords=whiteside+UDFT5152

for rounding over the corner of top I'd actually recommend a 3/8" or 1/2" radius bit.

http://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-2008-Roundover-Bit-1-1/dp/B000K2G2SC/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1411914362&sr=1-1&keywords=whiteside+2008

http://www.amazon.com/Shank-Radius-Diameter-Cutting-Length/dp/B000AM18QS/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1411914444&sr=1-1&keywords=whiteside+2009

for chamfering the top and bottom edges, I'd recommend getting the cheapest 45 degree bit you can find, as the laminate will destroy the bits edge.

for the bottom fence parts, I'd recommend using t-track in the back instead of routing a t-slot, as it will be cheaper, than buying a t-slot bit.

[Beechwood Chip]

I had actually been considering the set of 15 MLCS router bits in the wooden case as my "starter set" I had thought these would be an OK entry level set, then I could see what I used often and then replace thhose bits with higher quality, but I've already been warned about the quality of the MLCS bits, so I'm not sure. For the flush trim bit, can I get one with a larger - say 3/4"+ - cutting surface so that I can use it to trim my 3/4" hardwood edging, and would that bit aso work to trim the laminate material too? I was thinking I'd need at least two flush trim bits, one for the laminate material and one for the hardwood edging. Can I get one bit to perform both tasks?

 

[...] he cuts a slot for bolts that will hold the fence upright, and to do this he make one cut on the bottom of the table top that accommodates the bolt head. He then turns the table top over and finishes this slot with a smaller bit that accommodates the bolt itself. I'm pretty sure he's using two different sized straight bits of some kind to do this, but I'm not sure.

 

I'd definitely use aluminum T-track on wood, especially if the T-slot was with the grain.  I think the wings of the slot would be too weak if they were cut out of wood. With MDF and laminate, I'd still use aluminum T-Track, but that's just a hunch, and I think Norm's experience probably beats my hunch.  Also, aluminum T-track comes in a standard depth, but it you cut your own slots you can make them deeper, which will make the wings stronger.  You may find that the than the T-slot cutting bit.

 

Yes, if you are cutting a through T-slot you use two straight bits.  Or just use one straight bit and let the bolt ride on the bottom of the piece.  In this case, I don't think it needs to be a through T-slot, so I'd just use aluminum T-track.

[wtnhighlander]

I find the most used bits in my collection are:

Flush trim

1/4 and 1/2 roundovers

1/8 straight bit for inlay & carving.

1/2 or larger straight bit / end cutter for flattening with a sled.

Not that I don't keep other sizes and profiles, but I rarely use anything else. Dadoes and grooves I do on the tablesaw. Chamfers, tablesaw or hand plane. I occasionally use an ogee profile for edges, but frankly I lean more toward Shaker simplicity, so those occasions are far between.

[mikem]

Others may disagree, but I'd recommend getting an inexpensive set of 10 to 20 commonly used router bits. 

 

When it comes to buying tools, I learned the hard way to buy the best you can afford.  The exception is router bits.  When I got my first router I got a 50 bit set from Yonico.  No they aren't the best, and they did dull quickly.  However, when asked, I still recommend getting one of these sets to get started, for two reasons.

 

1.  I would much prefer to see someone put their money towards a good router, and a kit is an inexpensive way to get started using this.

2.  These bits are good to practice with

3.  It answers the question as to which bits you are going to use most frequently.  As a bit becomes dull, replace it with a high quality bit.  You know you have put your money towards a bit that will be used

4.  The less commonly used bits, you still have for that one time you need them.

 

 

I will note, one are to not go cheap is the cabinet door kits.  Buy quality here.

[TheWoodShouter]

Hey guys! Thanks for all the replies and help. I have just a couple follow up questions before I order some bits. At this point, I'm 99% sure I'm just going to go ahead and order the Incra Mast-R-Lift II in the 9-3/4" x 11-3/4" size because it holds my current router, and just about any of the larger routers I may purchase in the future. Because of the extra weight of the lift, I'm going to heed the advice of Dan S and go with three layers of 3/4" MDF laminated on both surfaces. I also see now where most of you guys have indeed used T-Track instead of cutting T-Slots for the fence; it's easier, cheaper, and probably lasts longer this way, so that's that.

My first question is, when routing the recess and rabbet for the lift plate, don't I need to match the radius of the corners of the plate with the correct router bit or possibly a forstner bit on the drill press? Does anyone know what the corner diameter is on the Incra lift plate I am considering? Or is there another way to address this issue?

To route the recess and rabbet, I think I'm going to try to follow the steps outlined by Dan S at his website, which involves using MFD to make templates for the recess hole and the rabbet. My question here is: because of the thickness of my top, won't I really need two router bits to completely route all the way through my top? Unless I'm wrong, I'll need some length of a pattern or template bit to start off with, but this bit wont get all the way through the thick top. So I will the have to use some length of a flush trim bit and complete the routing from the bottom surface of the top. Is this right? And if so, what length bits should I get given the thickness of my top?

And @ Dan S specifically, why do you suggest either a 3/8" or 1/2" round over when Norm uses a 1/4"? Is this just preference, or is there some rational behind this decision that leads to a better functioning fence?

Thanks very much!

-TWS

[wdwerker]

Practice on scrap before you route the hole for the plate !!!!!

If you cut the through hole first you only have to cut the recess for the plate around the edges.

A bigger baseplate helps prevent tipping. I have used double faced tape and a scrap of MDF to make a temporary wider baseplate.

[Dan S]

And @ Dan S specifically, why do you suggest either a 3/8" or 1/2" round over when Norm uses a 1/4"? Is this just preference, or is there some rational behind this decision that leads to a better functioning fence?

I wasn't referring to the fence but the top itself. Take a look at the first and last photos on this post.

http://www.dans-hobbies.com/2013/08/30/sliding-home/

In my opinion you want the top to have large round overs on the corners for two reasons. One, you are going to be constantly leaning against and bumping into the top, and thus getting jabbed with a corner will get old real quick. Secondly, a big corner radius allows you put a bigger chamfer/radius on the top and bottom edge without forming a square laminate corner, see the photos below. A sharp laminate corner is is usually where the laminate will eventually catch one something and pull away.

the left corner is a 1/4" corner radius with a 1/4" chamfer on the top edge. The right corner is a 1/2" corner radius with a 1/4" chamfer on the top edge.

[TheWoodShouter]

Hey guys!

 

Thanks for everyone's help, if I didn't reply to you personally it's not because I didn't appreciate your help, but I've been both busy at work and sick with a throat infection all at the same time. The good news is that I have ordered the Incra Mast-R-Lift II in the 9-1/4" x 11-3/4" plate size; should be here Friday :-)

 

To Dan S: Thank you again for stopping by and offering your help. I am planing on routing the recess and rabbet for the lift plate using the technique you outlined on your website. But, I'm still a little confused about the router bits I need. At your website, under the router table page, part 11 step 3 definitely says, "Use a flush trim, or pattern bit, to rout out the material inside the scrap pieces of MDF.  Please note, that the radius of the bit must be the same as the corners of the lift." So don't I need a bit to match that radius?

 

And then under part 12 you definitely talk about going as deep as possible with a pattern bit, then turning the top over and finishing the recess with a flush trim bit. So won't I in fact need two bits to complete my top since I too plan on making the top using 3 layers of MDF? I'd like to do it your way as the end result is very professional looking, and would offer the most support for the weight of the plate.

 

When you suggested a 1/2" or 3/8" round over, I now think you meant for me to use this bit to rout the vertical corner of the table top, yes? Can I do this safely and easily with just my hand-held router since I don't (yet) have a router table? In my mind, this somehow seems difficult and/or dangerous without a table, but maybe not. Otherwise, I was deciding between the way Norm did it - a relatively large radius circle, jigsaw, and beltsander - or simply cutting (mitering?) the front corners off so that the front side of the table looked like half of an elongated hexagon, if that makes sense. Would you instead suggest I just rout that vertical corner with a round over? 

 

I am planning on buying all Whiteside bits, with the exception of the chamfer as suggested. Right now I think I need a flush trim and a pattern bit for the recess and rabbet, a 1/4" round over to finish the edges of the fences parts (as per NYW), a 1/2" round over to smooth those vertical corners on the top, a 45 degree chamfer for the edges, and I think that gets me through the top at least. Does that seem right?

 

Thanks very much for all the help!

 

-TWS

[Dan S]

To Dan S: Thank you again for stopping by and offering your help. I am planing on routing the recess and rabbet for the lift plate using the technique you outlined on your website. But, I'm still a little confused about the router bits I need. At your website, under the router table page, part 11 step 3 definitely says, "Use a flush trim, or pattern bit, to rout out the material inside the scrap pieces of MDF.  Please note, that the radius of the bit must be the same as the corners of the lift." So don't I need a bit to match that radius?

If you do it the way I did, you will need a templateing bit with the same radius as your plate. However as someone else pointed out, you can accomplish the same thing by using a forstner bit of the correct radius. I think either method will work, so it comes down to which method you are most comfortable with.

And then under part 12 you definitely talk about going as deep as possible with a pattern bit, then turning the top over and finishing the recess with a flush trim bit. So won't I in fact need two bits to complete my top since I too plan on making the top using 3 layers of MDF?

Yes, you will need a templating bit and a flush trim bit, as no one bit (that I know of) is long enough to make the cut in one pass.

When you suggested a 1/2" or 3/8" round over, I now think you meant for me to use this bit to rout the vertical corner of the table top, yes? Can I do this safely and easily with just my hand-held router since I don't (yet) have a router table?

Yes, that's what I was referring to. A free hand router is safer and easier than a table for this operation. Every now and then you will hear someone say that at a certain size it becomes easier/safer to take the tool to the work, because the work piece is unwieldy, this is definitely one of those occasions.

Would you instead suggest I just rout that vertical corner with a round over?

Yep, it's probably quicker and more consistent.

I am planning on buying all Whiteside bits, with the exception of the chamfer as suggested. Right now I think I need a flush trim and a pattern bit for the recess and rabbet, a 1/4" round over to finish the edges of the fences parts (as per NYW), a 1/2" round over to smooth those vertical corners on the top, a 45 degree chamfer for the edges, and I think that gets me through the top at least. Does that seem right?

 

That will work. Personally, I'd recommend you skip the 1/4" round over and just use the chafmer bit on the fence parts. This is one of those areas where it comes down to personal preference and what tools/funds you have on hand.

[TheWoodShouter]

If you do it the way I did, you will need a templateing bit with the same radius as your plate. However as someone else pointed out, you can accomplish the same thing by using a forstner bit of the correct radius. I think either method will work, so it comes down to which method you are most comfortable with.

I think it was me who said forstner bit, which was right out of the Kreg router plate instructions, but someone else said that was a bad idea. Either way - router bit or forstner bit - don't I need to know and account for the corner radius of the lift plate? Does anyone happen to know what that is for the Incra Mast-R-Lift II offhand? If not, mine will be here by the end of the week.

 

Thank you very much!

 

-TheWoodShouter

[Eric.]

You can use any flush-trim bit as long as it's smaller than the radius of the corners.

[TheWoodShouter]

You can use any flush-trim bit as long as it's smaller than the radius of the corners.

Awesome, thanks! Do you happen to know the radius of the corners on the Incra lift?

 

-TWS

[Dan S]

You can use any flush-trim bit as long as it's smaller than the radius of the corners.

He is making the template not using a pre bought one that already has the proper corner radius. Yes he can use a smaller bit to make the template, but he will then have gaps in the corners.

[Dan S]

I did this real quick, if you used a 1/4" radius bit the make the template, but the lift had a 1/2" radius you would get the gap below in green. If you use a bit with a radius bigger than the lift, the lift won't fit in the hole at all.

 

 

[Eric.]

I thought the Incra came with a template.  Could be wrong.  In that case, yes, Dan is correct that you should just use a forstner to establish the right radius.  It's not rocket science...just grab a few and make a visual comparison.  I just looked at mine and it appears to be 1-3/8".

 

Another option would be to cut the rough radius with a jigsaw, then slowly refine them with a rasp until you're dead nuts on, if you don't have a forstner set (which you should).