nikbrown Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 So due to the weather and a power outage in our regian today I was in the shop working without power (being very glad old tools fascinate me). My project recently is a plywood cabinate for my hand planes... but being without power I didn't really want to be cutting plywood. (AKA: using my good hand saws on crappy ply!) So I jumped over to the current guild build, a wall hanging cabinate that I took on only as a skill builder for dovetails. Now, I've take a couple of classes on dovetails and traditional joinery with hand tools (including an entire weekend with Roy Underhill)... but I've never used any in a project nor have I been particularly good at practicing them since I learned do them. I just find it hard to "practice" anything... I always need a project to motivate me. I own 2 saws that are in any shape for doing woodworking joinery with. 1. A Veritas Standard Dovetail Saw, 14 tpi - I bought this about a year and a half ago with the goal of learning to cut dovetails (I've made probably 100 cuts on it) 2. A Gyokucho #651; 240mm Blue Hard Komame - I got this for Christmas last year and I use this saw for just about everything, even though I did very little woodworking last year. (probably ~200 cuts) So I went to the shop and started cutting dovetails with the Veritas today and made 8 cuts on the end of one 3/4 cherry board. It was ok, but I was struggling with it. It was difficult to get the cut started even with a very light touch. Once it was going it was doing ok but it certainly wasn't cutting like butter. I flipped the board over and marked my other end... as I was pulling back the Veritas to establish a bit of a curf dent so that it would track properly on the forward cutting stroke, I started think how much easier this would be with the Ryoba. So I grabbed it to see if it would be..... Oh my gosh what a difference! I started the cut with the crosscut teeth and made the curf, then flipped it over to the rip teeth and made the rest of the cut. It was so much faster and I was able to track my line so much easier (as long as I used a very fine touch, like I am supposed to anyway)! Now granted I have at least 2x the muscle memory on this saw. But that still leads me to the question... what's the advantage of a real western dovetail saw? Neither one of these saws is exactly a premium example of their type.... but most people consider both of them as well respected inexpensive tools. I always thought that even if I wanted to cut dovetails with a japanese saw I should grab a rip Dozuki, but my Ryoba seems a great tool for it. Although I'm seriously considering picking up a small 210mm Dozuki after this experience. Or is it just wrong to cut western joinery with an eastern saw? What do you use to hand cut your dovetails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberwerks Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I use a rip Dozuki: http://japantool-iida.com/saw/2008/05/dovetail-sawdozukinokogiri-by.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannikin Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I've always cut dovetails with a Dozuki but recently purchased a Lie-Nielsen progressive pitch dovetail saw (thanks to Mr. Schwarz). The western saw cuts a lot faster, but I haven't developed the same fine touch I have with the Dozuki yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmk89 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I use a 15ppi rip western backsaw. But just use what you're comfortable with that gets the kerf where you want it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Oh my gosh what a difference! I started the cut with the crosscut teeth and made the curf, then flipped it over to the rip teeth and made the rest of the cut. It was so much faster and I was able to track my line so much easier (as long as I used a very fine touch, like I am supposed to anyway)! Now granted I have at least 2x the muscle memory on this saw. But that still leads me to the question... what's the advantage of a real western dovetail saw? I like Japanese saws a lot more than western saws. Having said that, I think that the main advantage of a real western dovetail saw is if you have 2x the muscle memory on that saw. Practice makes perfect, either way. I use a 210 mm ryoba for my dovetails and other small joinery cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flairwoodworks Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I use the same Veritas saw you have. Two points for a Western saw are that the line isn't fuzzied as you saw, and the wider blade and increased set makes it easier to steer the saw if your cut is wandering (not that that ever happens!). When starting cutting, I usually move the forwards while bringing it into contact with the wood. In other words, the saw is moving forwards before it contacts the wood... similar to a power miter saw. It works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 The dovetails I've done always seem to end up being in drawers and I've used a Dozuki by Rockler. It worked out quite well. Question for you. Your workbench has caught my attention in the photo. What is that black walnut? Would you start another post with pics and a discription of your bench? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kep1019 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I use a cheap gents saw like $20, would love a veritas going forward. Also use a bandsaw to rough out and pare with a chisel if in a hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekG Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Using a Veritas saw here and love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Bennett Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I have a very ancient Diston and wouldn't change it for the world. Though these days I do tend to rip the tails with my bandsaw before using coping saws and bevel edge chisels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhelart Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Plenty of chatter on this topic so I'll add mine. First, when I first started cutting joinery by hand (back in the 80's) the quality of western saws was challenging and I got frustrated so I started experimenting with Japanese saws, they were very affordable. So for the past few years I had been using Japanese saws for this type of joinery, I have a few different ones, a few dozuki's with differing pitch and a ryoba, They work very well, leave a smooth kerf, reasonably fast cutting. However, just this past year I bought a new western dovetail saw from Glen Drake, I saw him at the Lie Nielsen hand tool event locally. The saw is a progressive pitch with no teeth at either end of the blade. The pitch goes from 12ppi to 16 then back to 12 and the smooth ends of the blade make it really easy to reverse direction and to get the saw started. I love this saw, it's a straight handled saw similar to the Japanese handles so I adjusted pretty quickly. The cut is faster, at least as accurate and just as smooth in the end. I like the greater heft in the hand. I also use one of his kerf starters, it's a small scraper that is used on edge to scribe the desired kerf on the end and fact, lay the saw in the kerf and go to town. One other suggestion for practicing, whenever I need a box or small carcass of any sort for the shop, I use construction pine and cut the joinery by hand. I recently made a small cabinet for some turning tools and a simple box frame to cover my granite plate, both of those have hand cut dovetails. Instead of saving the dovetail for something special, use it for everything and get comfortable with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdav Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 I use a 22 tpi Dozuki. I started with a marpels flush cut saw and can make a fair dovetail with it. I think you have so much more control if your cutting on the side you can see. There is much zen in a Dozuki! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikbrown Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I think at the end of the day I just refer pull saws.... thanks for all the input. I think at this point I'll just sell the Veritas. I had reached that decision before but just wanted to see what everyone else was using. So I'm on the hunt for a good rip Dozuki, preferably less than $75 or so (but under $100 for sure). 210mm. I've actually been eyeing this pair for a while. Nakaya Eaks 210mm Dozuki, cross cut. Nakaya Eaks 210mm Dozuki, rip cut. toolsfromjapan.com - $43.61 (could get both for less than $100) Or would I really be be better off just puting my money into something like this: Mitsukawa Brand Shirogane Hardwood Dozuki Rip Saw - $82.60 Any other 210mm Dozuki's I should be considering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikbrown Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 WOO HOO My parents got me a gift certificate for my birthday for toolsfromjapan.com from Stuart. They know me so well! Time to spend the week shopping! I'll finally have more than 1 saw to use on a daily basis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 That's great! From Stu's offerings, I'd take a look at the Gyokucho rip dozuki for dovetail use. I have this saw, and it's really nice. Gyokucho makes really nice machine-made saws. Even better would be to email Stu, tell him you want a new saw for dovetailing, and just go with what he tells you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikbrown Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 That's great! From Stu's offerings, I'd take a look at the Gyokucho rip dozuki for dovetail use. I have this saw, and it's really nice. Gyokucho makes really nice machine-made saws. Even better would be to email Stu, tell him you want a new saw for dovetailing, and just go with what he tells you. Yea I emailed Stu this morning and he emailed me back at 2am his time I gave him a list of wood species and dimensions I work with and he recommended I go with the Gyokucho #372 rip Dozuki. That man is insanely good at customer service! (my parents have nothing but great things about him as well, as he worked with them to put together the gift). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryangel69 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Has anybody tried these http://www.zonatool.net/razor-saws.html Can't beat that price, and has good reviews. I found the review hidden in the back of the 2011 tool guide. I been strongly considering giving them a try for those prices. I spend more that that on cheeseburgers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikbrown Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Has anybody tried these http://www.zonatool.net/razor-saws.html Can't beat that price, and has good reviews. I found the review hidden in the back of the 2011 tool guide. I been strongly considering giving them a try for those prices. I spend more that that on cheeseburgers. I have the miter box version of that saw; it works well for what it is. Cutting a good miter in stock 3/8" or less is fine. I wouldn't use it for anything bigger than that. They are great for really small detail cuts. It's strange that some of those saws are pull and some are push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdav Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Chad they are pretty good little saws. and for the vote I use a 22 tpi dozuki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryangel69 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Awesome, it will be like a my first saw kit. For less than $10 I will collect several. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger T Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Nik, Wilbur and all, For those of you that have ordered from Stu, he seems to want a social security # to be able to ship the goods to the states. Have you all given him your number? In this day of Identity theft, it just makes me a little leary to throw it out there like that. Have you had any issues with this? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikbrown Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 He never ask for a SS#. I ordered from him 2 days ago, great to deal with!!! Where did you get the social security # thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I made my first attempt at hand-cut dovetails this past weekend. This is the saw I used, http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2004237/8615/Mini-Dozuki-Panel-Saw.aspx While my first attempt was far from perfect, the tails and pins did fit together fairly tight. Looking forward to trying again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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