Japanese HSS vs Carbon Steel Tools

[Sourwould]

Hello! New forum member here.

I'm hoping to gather a bit of info before I order a set of Japanese chisels. 

I'm not a woodworker per se, but do work wood daily as a carpenter. I don't need a fancy or expensive chisel (probably best for them to be neither, seeing as how often things are destroyed, lost and stolen on job sites). I do need a chisel that performs in a less than friendly environment, which is why I'm considering HSS chisels instead of plain carbon steel.  I currently use an old set of Greenlee branded Marples chisels. They sharpen easily, but are very hard to keep sharp. I think they're pretty soft and don't cope well with the grit, dirt, glue and paint I work around. I am wondering if HSS would keep a keen edge longer in a harsh environment and if this is worth the extra cost and (I'm assuming) extra time sharpening. I'm also unsure if I can keep using my soft King water stones if I switched over to HSS. I do have a grinder, but it's a Makita water stone grinder that also has a pretty soft stone. 

If anyone has experience with HSS Japanese tools please chime in and thanks in advance for any advice!

[Chestnut]

I'm inclined to say the cost isn't going to be worth it. Also I'm not sure if the Japanese steels are considered a HSS they are usually labeled White or Blue carbon steel with a #1 and #2 grade on each. You may have more trouble with them being stolen as they generally are associated with being an expensive luxury item even if they aren't all that costly compared to other high end chisels.

I couldn't figure out what steel is used on the chisels you have. A good A2 steel should have good wear resistance but will be a bit harder to sharpen. There is also the Veritas PMV-11 chisels that hit the middle road of hardness vs ease of sharpening but the cost is high.

Either way you are looking at around $70-100 per chisel. You could get a lot of sets of the current Marples or narex chisles at that rate and just have backups when stuff gets dull. Sharpening early and often is goign to be your best bet to reducing sharpening time. Your king stones should be fine no matter what route you go. My king stone handles the A2 steels i throw at it quite well.

[Sourwould]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. 

I'm shopping on Fine Tools since they have some of the less "artisan" Japanese tools. Basically, they offer "unalloyed" carbon steel (which I'm guessing is plain old tool steel), white steel, blue steel, and ones branded simply "HSS." What kind of HSS? Who knows. Really, even if I was given a kind of HSS I probably wouldn't know one from the other. My experience with hand tools is all generally soft old school steel. 

The unalloyed budget chisels are ~$20 ea, the HSS are ~$40 ea, and the White steel are ~$45 ea. I don't think I'd spend more than that for what I do.

[Chestnut]

Just visited the site Yes a hardness in the mid 60s is a hard steel that will probably last longer. The major downside to harder steels is taking longer to sharpen and also is more brittle. Tossing this in a tool box maybe chip the edges so some sort of protection would be wise.

If being stolen was a problem before that problem is only going to get worse in my opinion.

[Byrdie]

Perhaps keeping a strop handy to hone periodically rather than having to sharpen all the time might be a simple and inexpensive way to keep your current chisels sharp.  I tend to agree with the idea of keeping several inexpensive ones handy in the work environment you describe and swapping them out frequently.   A few, quick passes over the strop would probably keep them "sharp enough" between real time spent sharpening.

[Tom King]

I don't think there is a magic metal that will last long with this type of use, which is also the same thing that mine are subjected to.  My chisels for such work are the blue plastic handled Marples, and Record chisels.  I do keep a pretty elaborate sharpening setup handy though, which can take one of those chisels from scraping paint off of bricks to shaving hair in a few minutes.  I don't share jobsites with other crews though, and never will.  Just the rack of sharpening stones I use is up in the hundreds of dollars, and not to be handled by the unappreciative.

The King stones won't be much good for harder steels.  

I have one plane with an A2 blade for shaving paint on window stools, and even it won't stay sharp for long shaving paint.  Paint is a lot harder on an edge than wood.

[derekcohen]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:05 AM, Sourwould said:

Sorry, I should have been more specific. 

I'm shopping on Fine Tools since they have some of the less "artisan" Japanese tools. Basically, they offer "unalloyed" carbon steel (which I'm guessing is plain old tool steel), white steel, blue steel, and ones branded simply "HSS." What kind of HSS? Who knows. Really, even if I was given a kind of HSS I probably wouldn't know one from the other. My experience with hand tools is all generally soft old school steel. 

The unalloyed budget chisels are ~$20 ea, the HSS are ~$40 ea, and the White steel are ~$45 ea. I don't think I'd spend more than that for what I do.

I doubt that you could purchase the Fujikawa chisels for $40 each. These are described as PM-HSS. I have just one, and it is the hardest steel I have ever sharpened. The only way I can do this is to hollow grind it, which is not what you do with laminated steel.

 

Having said this, it is possible that you could get a cheap HSS Japanese chisel - HSS has many levels of quality. Personally, I would rather have a decent white steel blade in the workshop building furniture. For the jobsite, HSS is another matter. It sounds very attractive ... but you still need to sharpen it, even if not as frequently.

Regards from Perth

Derek