Starrett Combo sqare question

[mhanskat]

So I recently realized that my combo square which I thought was square, was a piece of garbage, and realizing that I needed to get a new one, I figured why not replace it with something that will last as long as I do?!

I did a bit of research and found that for combo square Starrett is the most recommended, and one of the best brands out there.

So here's my question.

I did a bit of digging and found both of these:

C11 series (Cast Iron):

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-11H-12-4R-Combination-Square-Wrinkle/dp/B0002CSBNO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1298780111&sr=8-1-catcorr

C33 series (Forged Steel):

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-C33H-12-4R-12-Inch-Combination-Square/dp/B00002254K/ref=lh_ni_t_

What are the pros and cons to having a square like this?

The biggest one I'd guess at is rust? I live in Southern California, in the inland valleys where it's mostly hot and dry with very little in the way of humidity. If I choose the cast iron, will I need to worry about rust?

I just want some good and bad about the different choices here since this is my first major hand tool purchase (And it's expensive for a ruler )

[ScoFF]

Good topic, I'd like to know why starrets are better than any other square out there assuming they are square. $75 for a square? I'm using a Lee valley engineer type square right now. One piece, non adjustable $15. Is that bad? It seems dead amccurate on my digital protractor.

[Vic]

Bob, I'm betting your engineer square is dead on. The quickest way to determine that is to use a marking knife and score a line. Flip the square, with your marking knife in the same slot and score another line. If they are in the same scoring line, it's square, if not..well. I have Starrett adjustable squares because I'd bought other previously that were just plain crap. The Starrets I have are dead on and well made. So, I ended up paying more for quality than I should have. I'd like to say I've learned the lesson that you should only pay for quality once, but I tend to still try to skimp once in a while and seem to always get bitten. I'm at the point that I'm at the "Shame on me" status.

[rmac]

The quickest way to determine that is to use a marking knife and score a line. Flip the square, with your marking knife in the same slot and score another line. If they are in the same scoring line, it's square, if not..well.

Just a reminder that this only works if the edge you're holding the square against is absolutely straight.

-- Russ

[mhanskat]

Bob, I'm betting your engineer square is dead on. The quickest way to determine that is to use a marking knife and score a line. Flip the square, with your marking knife in the same slot and score another line. If they are in the same scoring line, it's square, if not..well. I have Starrett adjustable squares because I'd bought other previously that were just plain crap. The Starrets I have are dead on and well made. So, I ended up paying more for quality than I should have. I'd like to say I've learned the lesson that you should only pay for quality once, but I tend to still try to skimp once in a while and seem to always get bitten. I'm at the point that I'm at the "Shame on me" status.

That's the boat I'm in too. I bought crap and funny thing is I figured well out of the 12 they have here they must have one that's straight! WRONG! I gave up after about 3.

So what about the cast iron vs the steel hardened? Any thoughts?

[Lawrence Brown]

Okay, so as to the original question of cast iron versus steel, my room mate, who does a lot of metal work, is guessing it's the rust factor. Cast iron will rust a lot faster than steel because of the much higher carbon content. It's just a guess, but that's our two cents.

[mhanskat]

Okay, so as to the original question of cast iron versus steel, my room mate, who does a lot of metal work, is guessing it's the rust factor. Cast iron will rust a lot faster than steel because of the much higher carbon content. It's just a guess, but that's our two cents.

Do you think it would be so fast as to be a concern? I live where it's fairly dry, and I'm not familiar with how to take care of a tool like that to prevent rust, any ideas?

[Don Z.]

Good topic, I'd like to know why starrets are better than any other square out there assuming they are square. $75 for a square? I'm using a Lee valley engineer type square right now. One piece, non adjustable $15. Is that bad? It seems dead amccurate on my digital protractor.

I think what's important to remember is that Starret provides tools that are both straight and square to a level of precision/tolerance that is important for machine work, not woodwork.

[jab73180]

dj, if you are worried about rust you can always wax it. i havent heard anyone say they wax their square, but why wouldnt it work.

[Ben H]

I treat my Starret just like any other raw unpainted metal service. T9, dry overnight, and waxed. Never a moments problem. If anyone is on the fence about buying a Starret, jump off. Once you get one, use it for a hour, you will understand why it cost what it cost.

I do have that little double 4" LV dude. It's nice, but not Starret nice.

[amaonline]

The Starret is a good,dead on square. I got nauseated when I paid for it but that subsided when I rec'd(and like a poster previously said)used it for an hour. Great product. I got the centering,angle and combo package. All have been very useful.

I got the steel version as I use the rule by itself and I want those graduations to not be obscured by corrosion. I also live in a very dry climate but all it takes is one time and the usefulness of an expensive tool has been diminished.

[Dan S]

Starrett, Etalon, Brown & Sharpe, & Mitutoyo, are all top shelf measuring tool makers, and essentially equal when it comes to specs and fit & finish.

Good topic, I'd like to know why starrets are better than any other square out there assuming they are square. $75 for a square? I'm using a Lee valley engineer type square right now. One piece, non adjustable $15. Is that bad? It seems dead amccurate on my digital protractor.

[blindleader]

I got the steel version as I use the rule by itself and I want those graduations to not be obscured by corrosion.

FYI: The rule is steel, whether the body is steel or cast iron.

[BuilderBill]

Do you think it would be so fast as to be a concern? I live where it's fairly dry, and I'm not familiar with how to take care of a tool like that to prevent rust, any ideas?

The cast iron heads DO rust faster than the forged. It doesn't have to be the weather, just use one and forget to wipe it down with an oiled rag and next day you'll have rust spots. If it's warm it won't take overnight, a couple of hours later you'll have rust spots. I have a love-hate relationship with the double squares, they work great but you can't get them with the forged head and satin-chrome blades and it's a continuous battle to keep the rust off them.

Besides being more susceptible to rust, keep in mind that the blade bears on the slot in the handle and cast iron is much softer than forged steel, if you slide it around enough it can wear out of square.

The standard blades rust too, you're a lot better off with the satin chrome. The model you're looking for is the C33H-12-4R .

As far as the cost, why pay half as much for a cheap tool only to end up replacing it a couple of times before you get something accurate that'll last. Barring theft, leaving it out in the rain or backing over it with a truck, you'll never have to buy another 12" combo square as long as you live. C'mon, we're talking a hundred bucks for something you'll use the rest of your life to set up machinery that costs you thousands. A couple of halfway-decent dinners for two or a couple nights out with the boys...

Example: Consider what a tolerance of one-thousandth per inch really means. In a twelve-inch square, that's 1/64" total. So you use that square to set, for example, the guide rail on the Festool MFT-3(or your radial-arm saw or the miter gauge on your table saw). Rip a straight edge on a piece of ply, rip it again to 24" for a cabinet side and flop it onto the MFT-3/whichever for the crosscut. So now your crosscut is 1/32nd out. Flip it end for end to keep the same edge against the fence and make another crosscut, now one edge is 1/16 longer than the other. So now you cut the other side... When you put them on the base you flip one of the pieces to get the good face out and now you have one corner 1/8" higher than the diagonally opposite one. I don't care what your skill level is, this is a problem....

And all this is because your reference was within it's advertised(maybe) tolerance of .001 per inch.

For me it's a no-brainer: spend the money, get the most accurate reference tool you can afford and have something reasonably absolute to start from.

YMMV but that's my $.02 worth,

Bill

[outofstepper]

Just a few thoughts, in no particular order, FWIW:

1. Don Z makes a good point, these are for machine work / not woodworking. The line you scribe will

probably defeat the tolerances of the square, but:

2. if you need high precision (for setting up machines, for example), a combination square isn't the

tool for the job anyway. your reference tools should have no moving parts.

3. technically cast iron is more dimensionally stable than steel but see #2 above

4. cast iron is more brittle than steel. if you drop the steel square it could bend. the cast iron

would break. you'd know instantly you're out of square. cast iron tools are usually heavier than steel

because of this -- i'd bet the cast iron combo square is beefier.

5. a combo square is a convenience and as with all convenience tools some trade offs are made. whether

these trade offs effect your work or not (see #1) is up to you.

6. with all that said, I own a B&S set myself. You can't go wrong with the one's Dan S. listed. I use

it happily with steel fabrication and doing layout work prior to cutting anything. Once thats done,

the combo square gets put away and "the instruments" come out for machining.

now I've only recently started woodworking.. and I think my machining background is actually a bit

of a crutch as I have to redefine what "square / flat / true" reasonably means for wood.

-Tony

[nikbrown]

I dont have much to add other than the satin chrome is really a lot nicer! whatever you decide make sure the blade has a satin chrome finish!!! its rust resistant and it's MUCH easier to read. I've bought new blades for all my measuring tools because the satin chrome is so much nicer! (12" square, 6" square, 12" protractor).

I bought all my Starrett heads at flea markets and just put new blades on them.

I did go cheap and bought a IGaging 4" double square and while it's square to every tolerance I can mesure the fit and finish is pretty rough compared to the Starrett's... of course I spent $6 new for it... it really is cheap in most sense of the word.

I've heard good things about the PEC squares, but I dont know if they have the satin blades.

[bgrella]

I'll second Tony's #2 point above.

I have one of Ed's precision squares(scroll down) and love it. It's really beefy and has a thick edge for use with dial indicators.

No affiliation yada, yada, yada...

[Don Z.]

One other thing I'd like to mention is that way back in post #2, Bob seems to be referring to his "one piece, non-adjustable" square, and comparing it to an adjustable Starrett. Well, yes, the adjustable will be much more than the non-adjustable. $60 more? Well, yes, when you consider the machining tolerances you need to ensure the tolerances stay after you've adjusted it.

None of this should be a surprise at all...

[jHop]

I haven't taken the plunge yet on Starret. (Aside from purchasing some stock in the company, that is.) I like the quality, I like the product, I don't like the price.

I can't complain about my current combination square, because I don't use it that much. I've tried to use it as a center finder for turning stock, but realized the material just slides off the end anyway. I don't use it for precision because it's not a precision tool (in my mind).

That said, I'd like to have both a combination square and a fixed (I believe the term is "engineering") square. There are times it's more useful to have the fixed 90 degree marker than have to adjust to it.

as for Cast Iron versus Forged Steel, well, you realize most engine blocks use cast iron (usually), right? The reason cast iron is picked is not just that it's cheaper; the iron can be melted down and poured into a mold (called a "cast") that, once it cools, resembles the product. Some finishing work on it to remove the seam lines, the seepage where the hot metal forced its way through the seams and created tabs (think plastic model: the flash from the plastic attaching the part to the sprue.) and maybe a quick dip to rinse off the lubricating agent they sprayed on the mold to help with releasing the metal from the mold.

Forging steel takes heating iron up until it's soft and malleable, and pounding the molecules and crystalline structure of the metal into alignment. Along the way, they pound out "slag," add in carbon (blacksmiths tend to use some of the excess coal dust they have lying around, I don't know what steel mills use.), and keep pounding. In the end, you have a more durable material that is more brittle. Doesn't make sense, does it?

If you pound on a chunk of cast iron, you leave a dent. If you pound on a chunk of steel, you'll either break it or do nothing to it. (It depends what you use to back up the material.) What makes the metal better for frequent use is heat treating, which is different from the process used to make steel. So to get the same durability from cast iron as they get from steel, they need to use more cast iron. (Here's the difference in weight.)

Personally, being a klutz, I'd rather get the steel set. yes, they can be bent, but they are far more likely to stand up to the abuse that I possibly could apply to one. And they are more resistant to rust. But a moment of inattention or laziness can ruin both. Your best defense against rust is a routine, not relying on the tool. You'd only have to spend more money on another tool, if you don't take care of it.

(I know this is a long winded rant. I apologize. Time to get off the computer and go shopping at Woodcraft.)

[mhanskat]

So I ended up buying the cast iron with the standard blade.

I figured if I take care of it, then no matter which one I have it'll last, and I didn't want to spend the extra money for a satin finish. Just couldn't justify it after spending so much on other tools already.

Got it this week and used it to finalize some of the setup on my table saw, and I've got to say the quality really shows through.

I also ended up grabbing a 24" Groz straight edge, and Groz machinist squares as well, just to make sure I can be as accurate as possible with my tool setup and measurements.

Now the question is, how do you wax such small parts!

Guess I'm off to find out!