Staining Problems

[ReLMAustin]

Hi Everyone,

I am having a lot of difficulty staining a maple box I built. I am trying to follow the instructions in Marc's video here: http://thewoodwhisperer.com/73-coloring-blotchy-woods/ . I started with a cut of shellac. I couldn't find SealCoat so I had to use straight shellac, but in my latest attempt I cut it 2:1. Then, I have been using a gel stain.

You can see from the photos that the outcome is not uniform at all. I put the gel stain on, wait a bit and wipe it off. Hardly any comes back off, and I end up with light and dark patches depending on how uniform it went on. I can get it on more uniformly, though, with just wiping on this pudding-like stuff. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

I've done this twice now. This time, after it dried, I tried to get the heavy patches up and get it to reflow a bit with mineral spirits. It didn't really help, though. Is there any way I can recover from this, or do I have it sand it all off and start again?

Thank you for any advice you can offer.

[tdale51@yahoo.com]

I am by no means a finishing expert but here's what it looks like to me. The "blotchyness" looks like there may have been some sort of end grain in the middle of the board. It also looks like maybe you're getting a little over lap along the edges when applying the stain, so in essence the face is getting two coats around the edge while the body of the face is only getting one. I hope this is helpful.

[Rapid Roger]

You say that you cut the shellac 2;-1...Was that 2 parts of shellac to 1 part alcohol or 2 parts alcohol to one part shellac? If it was the last one, you may have coated the wood with alcohol and gotten very little shellac to fill the poors with. I usually cut the shellac 50/50 and have had fairly good luck on pine and poplar. I THINK the only reason to cut shellac to 1# when using as a filler like that is to prevent too much build up and sealing of the wood thereby keeping the stain from getting into the wood at all. And by the same token alcohol will just evaporate and not really do much good for preventing blotching.

This is just a WAG

[AceHoleInOne]

Are these test pieces or pieces from the actual box you are working on? What brand of gel stain are you using? Did you do the above finishing schedule to the entire box, such as using the mineral spirits?

-Ace-

[Jerry_in_SD]

When you say straight shellac, this is dewaxed Shellac correct? Shellac with wax additives may interfere with likely urethane-based gel stain. If you mixed your own out of flakes - never mind.

Have you thought of dye? To be honest, I have never tried to color maple but if I did, I would likely go the dye route that I read more about.

[ReLMAustin]

Hi Everyone!

Boy, what a week. Thank you everyone for the replies. I'm sorry that I'm only now getting around to responding.

You say that you cut the shellac 2;-1...Was that 2 parts of shellac to 1 part alcohol or 2 parts alcohol to one part shellac? If it was the last one, you may have coated the wood with alcohol and gotten very little shellac to fill the poors with. I usually cut the shellac 50/50 and have had fairly good luck on pine and poplar. I THINK the only reason to cut shellac to 1# when using as a filler like that is to prevent too much build up and sealing of the wood thereby keeping the stain from getting into the wood at all. And by the same token alcohol will just evaporate and not really do much good for preventing blotching.

This is just a WAG

It was actually 2 parts alcohol to 1 part shellac. My understanding is that the shellac I have is a 3# cut. So I was trying to get it more to the < 1# cut as suggested in the video. After using the shellac, the box seemed to have a good coat.

Are these test pieces or pieces from the actual box you are working on? What brand of gel stain are you using? Did you do the above finishing schedule to the entire box, such as using the mineral spirits?

I did a test piece first that came out fine. Now, though, I'm doing the actual box, and the results were poor. The gel stain I am using is Minwax. Yes, I did all of the above on the entire box.

When you say straight shellac, this is dewaxed Shellac correct? Shellac with wax additives may interfere with likely urethane-based gel stain. If you mixed your own out of flakes - never mind.

Have you thought of dye? To be honest, I have never tried to color maple but if I did, I would likely go the dye route that I read more about.

Yes, I think it is dewaxed Shellac. I don't know anything about dye. Why would you have gone that route instead?

[AceHoleInOne]

First, I have never used the Minwax brand of gel stains, but have used other makers gel stains. Gel stains are formulated thick to sit on top of the wood so it applies thinner. I apply gel stains with a rag and work it into the wood (like a cream car polish). First I rub in against the grain to work the pigments deep into the grain, then finish off wiping with the grain. Gel stains should not sit (rest for a period of time) on the surface all thick a gooey, then be wiped back.

If this were me and your project appears to be small size? I would start over and sand back. It happens.

Interesting looking at your pictures, to my eye, looks like the shellac over-sealed your wood? Did mineral spirits completely washed off the stain with no sanding? Sometimes wash coats can be tricky allowing just the right amount of stain in.

-Ace-

[ReLMAustin]

Thanks Ace.

I did go ahead and sand back to bare wood. I think you are right about the shellac over-sealing. I've just put another layer of stain on, without the shellac, and it seems a lot more uniform. It is pretty light, though. I'm going to add another layer tomorrow, and then shellac over the whole thing.

[TimV]

[

It was actually 2 parts alcohol to 1 part shellac. My understanding is that the shellac I have is a 3# cut. So I was trying to get it more to the < 1# cut as suggested in the video. After using the shellac, the box seemed to have a good coat.

Yes, I think it is dewaxed Shellac.

Couple things. 2 parts denatured alcohol (you did use denatured alcohol, right?) to 1 part shellac does not give you a 1lb cut starting with a 3 lb cut. However, you're close. You're actually less than a 1lb cut, so that may be one cause of blotchyness, not enough of a seal coat.

Courtesy of FineWoodworking:

Shellac Conversion Ratios

To convert remixed shellac to a dilute cut, add the appropriate amount of alcohol, as shown in the chart. For example, to convert a 2-lb. cut to a 1-lb. cut, add 2/3 of 1 part alcohol to a 1 part existing 2-lb.-cut shellac solution.

Parts Alcohol: Parts Existing Cut

Existing Cut 1/4 lb. | 1/2 lb. | 1 lb. | 1-1/2 lb. | 2 lb. | 3 lb.

1/2 lb. 1:1 |

1lb. 3:1 | 7/8:1 |

1-1/2 lb. 4-1/2:1 | 1-2/3:1 | 1/3:1 |

2 lb. 5:1 | 2:1 | 2/3:1 | 1/4:1 |

3 lb. 8-3/4:1 | 3-3/4:1 | 1-1/2:1 | 3/4:1 | 1/3:1 |

4 lb. 11:1 | 5:1 | 2:1 | 1-1/4:1 | 3/4:1 | 1/4:1 |

5 lb. 12-3/4:1 | 5-3/4:1 | 2-3/4:1 | 1-1/2:1 | 1:1 | 7/8:1 |

So if you can read that, to go from a 3lb to a 1lb you mix 1-1/2 parts alcohol to 1 part shellac.

The other thing, are you sure it's dewaxed shellac? Does the can say dewaxed shellac? If it doesn't, most likely it is not dewaxed shellac. The wax will generally inhibit layers from adhering properly but in your case, with a gel stain it shouldn't affect it too much. But to be safe, I only use dewaxed shellac (sealcoat) unless it is my finish topcoat.

One final thing, as Ace mentioned, you shouldn't allow the gel stain to dry on the surface. You will get major blotchyness (is that a word?) in those areas where it dried.