Shop Heating

[sdkidaho]

Check out the link I referenced. It has a map of the US with recommendations.

So I would assume that since they only show a small portion of the US on that map that the portions that are not shown should be Vapor Barrier on the interior side, correct?

[Vic]

So I would assume that since they only show a small portion of the US on that map that the portions that are not shown should be Vapor Barrier on the interior side, correct?

That is correct, sir!! LOL! Even the codes for venting crawl spaces have come into question in areas of high humidity. We shut the crawls up in the winter when the humidity is lower and open them up in the high humidity of the summer months. This bring warm, moist air into the crawl space. The insulation is usually just fiberglass batt up against the floor. The interior space is cool. The warm, moist air easily migrates up to hit the cool floor where it condenses, and you now have mold. On a more positive note, code is slowly being rewritten to be in alignment with real building science. Unfortunately, most code officials don't know anything about building science. That is an area that has been relegated to people in the conservation/ energy efficiency fields. I get complaints all the time that a house has been inspected and has huge energy problems. I have to be very careful to let the people know that they are looking for safety problems on the whole, not energy problems. Everybody wants to sue their house inspectors for not catching things they aren't trained to catch.

Btw, my knowledge of moisture mitigation is quite limited to books, as I live in a desert. Most of the real knowledge that is picked up is in the field is by seeing what can really go wrong.

[CJC5151]

I dont know if this will work for everyone but i happen to talk to a hvac guy and he told me that he is constantly pulling out perfectly good furnaces and replacing them with bigger higher efficient systems. He sold me a 3year old furnace and installed it in the ceiling of my garage. I have 3 ducts on the back wall an 2 on the two sides. I ran the trunk likes and all as he did was hook up the gas line and run the exhaust. he charged me 100 bucks for the unit and 250 for his labor. I had another 200 in materials and in the end I have a thermostat controlled shop that I dodt have to worry about for $550. Maybe I got lucky but if your shop is insulated well might be worth a phone call to your local hvac guy.

[sdkidaho]

Wow - that's a good idea, thanks CJ

[jab73180]

so i bought a used camper trailer furnace to heat my shop with. maybe someone with more experience can help me out. the heater is 34000 btu's, propane, forced warm air and pulls air from outside and exhausts through the wall. im thinking 34000 btu's is enough to heat my 12 x 16 shop with 7 ft celings. i like the fresh air and exhaust setup because i dont have to put in a chimney. the only down fall is the forced air part. is that gonna blow to much dust around especially being such a small shop??

[Vic]

That's a 3 ton unit. I have a 2.5 ton heatpump to heat my entire 1800 sq foot house. You sure it isn't 3400 btus? As far as blowing dust about. Probably, but I have forced air in my shop and it doesn't bother me. Of course, I have excellent dust collection.

[Ben H]

I've been using a wood pellet stove for about 5 years now. I love it. On low, it will keep the shop around 80 if it's 10 outside for about 12-14 hours before it runs out of pellets. It's great for finishing and such late at night , shut the lights off and go to bed. Here is the one I have Disclaimer*** I was once a manager at Lowes and bought this thing as the floor model at the end of winter. I think I paid 200.00 for it. Smokin Deal!

[jab73180]

yeah its 34000 btu's. they have to make a camper trailer furnace huge because there isnt much r value....anywhere. the walls are inch and half thick and the roof is prolly 3 inches thick. not a lot of room to insulate.

[CubsFan]

Insulation is now installed! Went with R30 in the attic and R13 in the walls. I did put some type of covering over all of it, I didn't put a lot of care into the seams or anything. So while I expect the covering will help with the heat, it won't be 100% perfect or anything. Overall, I think that while I could have done things much better, for the amount of time and money I spent, this will be a huge benefit.

So, now that I have a 30 amp 220 circuit, it's time to look for a heater. Anyone have any experience with something about that size? The two I'm considering now are:

http://www.amazon.com/Dimplex-CUH05B31T-5000-Watt-Compact-Industrial/dp/B002AB4OXG/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1286821416&sr=8-25

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_595_595

They seem mostly equivalent, though the Northern Tool one seems a little nicer. Any opinions on these (or other ones that would work?)

[Vic]

The Northern Tools one looks identical to the one I mounted in my old shop. It worked great..had a nice blower on it, too. The guys that we sold the house to, still uses the garage for his "man cave" and is still using the unit. That old garage was not well air sealed or well insulated, but it had no problem keeping a two bay room toasty.

Insulation is now installed! Went with R30 in the attic and R13 in the walls. I did put some type of covering over all of it, I didn't put a lot of care into the seams or anything. So while I expect the covering will help with the heat, it won't be 100% perfect or anything. Overall, I think that while I could have done things much better, for the amount of time and money I spent, this will be a huge benefit.

So, now that I have a 30 amp 220 circuit, it's time to look for a heater. Anyone have any experience with something about that size? The two I'm considering now are:

http://www.amazon.com/Dimplex-CUH05B31T-5000-Watt-Compact-Industrial/dp/B002AB4OXG/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1286821416&sr=8-25

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_595_595

They seem mostly equivalent, though the Northern Tool one seems a little nicer. Any opinions on these (or other ones that would work?)

[Saddlestrum]

Howdy all;

I've followed the various comments here with some interest with my background in Building Science.

Without being critical, many of the posts made previously are off the mark. There's no way I can address all the points in this short space but I'll make a few with a view to being helpful;

VAPOR BARRIER;

One of the most important, vital, steps in improving energy efficiency is the process of applying the vapor barrier which must be on the warm side of the insulation, (and not violate the "1/3 - 2/3rds" rule.)

The type of vapor barrier most recommended is 6 mil poly, CAREFULLY applied with overlapping seams that should be tightly sealed using continuous runs of red "Tuck Tape" or acoustical sealant. Seams should be over a vertical stud for backing.

(Other barriers are also acceptable such as oil-based paints etc.) All interior surfaces have to be addressed including walls, ceilings, bulkheads, with electrical boxes carefully sealed.

Any perforations through the vapor barrier such as electrical boxes, telephone boxes, wiring, plumbing, etc., must be completely sealed. ("tuck tape", acoustical sealant)

The time and care you take while applying the vapor barrier will pay huge dividends in energy savings, noise reduction, dust control, etc.

Be sure to seal between the bottom plate and the floor. This will stop air blowing in between the plate and the floor. (Our research revealed lots of air leakage between the plates and the floor as well as the area where the (rim) floor joists meet the headers. Bring your wall poly down to the bottom plate, lay a continuous bead of acoustical sealant on the side of the plate and then drape the poly over the bead, stapling it in place directly over the sealant. The goal is to seal tight any holes in the poly that are not directly over sealant through which air can move. When the poly is in place, take time to review your work with a roll of "tuck tape" and scissors in hand, cutting small pieces and sticking them securely over any holes caused by staples, careless punctures, etc.

Secondly, fiberglas insulation is the most popular form of insulative materials. Do NOT depend on the paper backing to provide any type of vapor barrier. The paper backing on each batt creates a continuous seam between every adjoining batt, the total air/vapor leakage on a 24 foot long wall is roughly equivalent to a hole in your wall measuring 16" x 16". Conclusion: you have to use a better air/vapor barrier such as 6 mil poly that is continous. Seal any punctures in the poly using pieces of red "Tuck Tape", taping over every hole to stop air movement.

Areas alongside window frames, door frames, and door sills can be sealed using spray foam with this caveat; be careful with some foams as they can expand force ("bow") the window frame and door frame and will make it distort, voiding any warranty from the manufacturer. Spray foam acts both as a vapor/air barrier and insulation so it's good because of these qualities.

Interestingly "Cubsfan" says, "I did put some type of covering over all of it, I didn't put a lot of care into the seams or anything." This is a common mistake we hear from homeowners that "rush through it" and will result in much higher heating costs as the heat migrates quickly through the walls and ceiling through every opening. A little more time and care applying a continuous vapor barrier will pay off bigtime later.

INSULATION;

As mentioned fiberglass batts are the most common and easily installed but these, as with the vapor barrier, should be done patiently and with care...not just "crammed" into the stud space. Also, fiberglass MUST be installed in the same orientation as the batt. You cannot cut a strip, turn it 90 degrees and cram it into a narrow space.

A better insulation material is spray foam, usually installed by trained professionals that arrive with a pump truck. This option is often most costly and beyond any but the most fervent builders.

One of the best performing houses I inspected was a builder that used 2x6 studs insulated with R20 fiberglass insulation on the perimeter walls of his house. On the warm side (as per code) he carefully applied 6 mil poly continuously with all seams taped and/or sealed with acoustical sealant. Note that at this point there were NO electrical lines, plumbing, or electrical boxes installed in the 2x6 stud space!

Then on the warm side of the 6 mil poly he screwed 2x3's (nailed through the 1.5" face so it gave another wall 2.5" deep) horizontally starting at the floor level and spaced every 24" up to the ceiling. Within THIS space he ran his electrical, cable, plumbing, telephone, etc. with no perforations through his 6 mil vapor barrier. Once that was done he installed R8 fiberglass batts into the 2x3 space and applied his drywall (sheetrock). When we did a "blower door" test on the house, the numbers were incredibly good.

One other thing, "pot lights" (recessed) in the ceiling are a prime area of heat loss. At best they can only be moderately insulated. Latest building science recommends pot lights be avoided in favor of surface mounted lights.

That's all for now. Obviously there is much, much more that can be offered on this subject. Keep in mind, the more severe the climate, the quicker the paybacks...and yes, the same principle for keeping heat in, works in southern climates for air-conditioning costs as well. Talk to your local utility company. They usually have a department that is knowledgeable and can offer advice for your particular area.

One other note: I would absolutely discourage using fiberglass batts with no vapor barrier in any shop. Fiberglass batts give off minute particles and they don't deteriorate in your lungs but stay in their original form. For safety, install vapor barrier and keep the fiberglass away from your work space.

When you've done a good job with your vapor barrier and insulation, you can choose a heater that will run efficiently and keep you comfortable with minimal operating expense. This is a much better approach than "buying a bigger heater."

Thanks for reading,

Saddlestrum.

[Vic]

Howdy all;

I've followed the various comments here with some interest with my background in Building Science.

Without being critical, many of the posts made previously are off the mark. There's no way I can address all the points in this short space but I'll make a few with a view to being helpful;

VAPOR BARRIER;

One of the most important, vital, steps in improving energy efficiency is the process of applying the vapor barrier which must be on the warm side of the insulation, (and not violate the "1/3 - 2/3rds" rule.)

The type of vapor barrier most recommended is 6 mil poly, CAREFULLY applied with overlapping seams that should be tightly sealed using continuous runs of red "Tuck Tape" or acoustical sealant. Seams should be over a vertical stud for backing.

(Other barriers are also acceptable such as oil-based paints etc.) All interior surfaces have to be addressed including walls, ceilings, bulkheads, with electrical boxes carefully sealed.

Any perforations through the vapor barrier such as electrical boxes, telephone boxes, wiring, plumbing, etc., must be completely sealed. ("tuck tape", acoustical sealant)

The time and care you take while applying the vapor barrier will pay huge dividends in energy savings, noise reduction, dust control, etc.

Be sure to seal between the bottom plate and the floor. This will stop air blowing in between the plate and the floor. (Our research revealed lots of air leakage between the plates and the floor as well as the area where the (rim) floor joists meet the headers. Bring your wall poly down to the bottom plate, lay a continuous bead of acoustical sealant on the side of the plate and then drape the poly over the bead, stapling it in place directly over the sealant. The goal is to seal tight any holes in the poly that are not directly over sealant through which air can move. When the poly is in place, take time to review your work with a roll of "tuck tape" and scissors in hand, cutting small pieces and sticking them securely over any holes caused by staples, careless punctures, etc.

Secondly, fiberglas insulation is the most popular form of insulative materials. Do NOT depend on the paper backing to provide any type of vapor barrier. The paper backing on each batt creates a continuous seam between every adjoining batt, the total air/vapor leakage on a 24 foot long wall is roughly equivalent to a hole in your wall measuring 16" x 16". Conclusion: you have to use a better air/vapor barrier such as 6 mil poly that is continous. Seal any punctures in the poly using pieces of red "Tuck Tape", taping over every hole to stop air movement.

Areas alongside window frames, door frames, and door sills can be sealed using spray foam with this caveat; be careful with some foams as they can expand force ("bow") the window frame and door frame and will make it distort, voiding any warranty from the manufacturer. Spray foam acts both as a vapor/air barrier and insulation so it's good because of these qualities.

Interestingly "Cubsfan" says, "I did put some type of covering over all of it, I didn't put a lot of care into the seams or anything." This is a common mistake we hear from homeowners that "rush through it" and will result in much higher heating costs as the heat migrates quickly through the walls and ceiling through every opening. A little more time and care applying a continuous vapor barrier will pay off bigtime later.

INSULATION;

As mentioned fiberglass batts are the most common and easily installed but these, as with the vapor barrier, should be done patiently and with care...not just "crammed" into the stud space. Also, fiberglass MUST be installed in the same orientation as the batt. You cannot cut a strip, turn it 90 degrees and cram it into a narrow space.

A better insulation material is spray foam, usually installed by trained professionals that arrive with a pump truck. This option is often most costly and beyond any but the most fervent builders.

One of the best performing houses I inspected was a builder that used 2x6 studs insulated with R20 fiberglass insulation on the perimeter walls of his house. On the warm side (as per code) he carefully applied 6 mil poly continuously with all seams taped and/or sealed with acoustical sealant. Note that at this point there were NO electrical lines, plumbing, or electrical boxes installed in the 2x6 stud space!

Then on the warm side of the 6 mil poly he screwed 2x3's (nailed through the 1.5" face so it gave another wall 2.5" deep) horizontally starting at the floor level and spaced every 24" up to the ceiling. Within THIS space he ran his electrical, cable, plumbing, telephone, etc. with no perforations through his 6 mil vapor barrier. Once that was done he installed R8 fiberglass batts into the 2x3 space and applied his drywall (sheetrock). When we did a "blower door" test on the house, the numbers were incredibly good.

One other thing, "pot lights" (recessed) in the ceiling are a prime area of heat loss. At best they can only be moderately insulated. Latest building science recommends pot lights be avoided in favor of surface mounted lights.

That's all for now. Obviously there is much, much more that can be offered on this subject. Keep in mind, the more severe the climate, the quicker the paybacks...and yes, the same principle for keeping heat in, works in southern climates for air-conditioning costs as well. Talk to your local utility company. They usually have a department that is knowledgeable and can offer advice for your particular area.

One other note: I would absolutely discourage using fiberglass batts with no vapor barrier in any shop. Fiberglass batts give off minute particles and they don't deteriorate in your lungs but stay in their original form. For safety, install vapor barrier and keep the fiberglass away from your work space.

When you've done a good job with your vapor barrier and insulation, you can choose a heater that will run efficiently and keep you comfortable with minimal operating expense. This is a much better approach than "buying a bigger heater."

Thanks for reading,

Saddlestrum.

Cool, sounds like another energy professional. You're right, even though I stressed that air sealing was much more important (not in place of) than insulation, I could've drilled deeper. But, I let people know what I do for a living and offered further advice if they would like to actually contact me. I've found an interactive conversation is much more productive than me writing in depth here. All good points, though. The most profound thing for me is that the cheapest things a person can do on their own build are often ignored or, as you said, rushed through without attention to detail.

[kris]

I am in northern Illinois. After a few years of heating a partially insulated garage with an portable LP heater, I got tired of the high moisture in the burned LP, especially since the cast iron in my tools was very cold, there was a lot of water on the surfaces when I turned on the heater. We moved to another house and I took the time to insulate the walls and cover with 1/2 plywood which is great for attaching things to the walls anywhere. I then insulated the roof with the wrapped insulation, which helps with air flow, held in place with those wires you push in between the rafters.

I then installed a ceiling hung natural gas heater. I bought a sealed burner heater so that spraying solvents wouldn't be an issue. The heater cost about $800. I could have gotten one for about $350 at the home store without the sealed burner. The sealed burner requires a double walled vent that brings in combustion air from outside. I did have to have a gas line installed from the house to the detached garage, about 30 feet of pipe laid underground.

I set the thermostat to 50 degrees and then when I am using it, I bump it up to about 65 degrees. Very comfortable and no more rust on my tools!

Kris

[iSawitFirst]

Cellulose insulation was mentioned earlier. Be sure to use the kind that is treated so it won't be a food source for mildew (cellulose is paper).

Moisture vapor is actually driven into the wall by pressure variations and can go right through sheetrock.The reason water condenses inside walls is due to temperature variations within the wall causing a dew point to occur. Moist air hitting cool air = condensation.

While its true that a 6 mil poly VB is superior to paper VB's, it should be used with caution in high humidity areas. It can actually cause the shop/house to be too airtight and will cause enough water vapor to collect on sheetrock surfaces to propagate mildew.

Never use two vapor barriers in a wall. Moisture vapor that gets between the two can be trapped and condense/vaporize/condense/vaporize.....you get the picture.

Lastly, using a ventless gas heater will cause an interior humidity increase whether you're in a wet or dry climate. Water is a byproduct of the gas as it oxidizes.

[nateswoodworks]

I have a gas furnace that I put in when I built my shop and insulated to the max and wouldn't want it any other way, as far as running a gas line, mine is over 100feet and depending on the pipe you use you can go any distance, gas companies do. Just something to keep in mind and as always everyone here has given you a number of good choices.

Nate

[elimelech12]

i'm heating my garage shop with the NewAir g73....this is the best heater available for 500 sf or less...I'm pretty sure it will work for larger areas also because my garage was too hot the first time I turned it on...

[Emmrys]

I am obviously in the low tech end of heating. I have two incandescent bulbs and a small electric space heater. Not recommending that anyone do that but it's what I have and it works better than you would think. LOL

[Vic]

I am obviously in the low tech end of heating. I have two incandescent bulbs and a small electric space heater. Not recommending that anyone do that but it's what I have and it works better than you would think. LOL

LOL..it's all energy in and energy out, Emm. I recently wrote a snippet on my blog about a guy that is marketing light bulbs as "Heat balls"... http://tumblewood.blogspot.com/2010/12/marketing-genius-energy-efficiency-post.html

[Hellfish00]

I'm running a Reznor UDAP in my shop. With a garage thermostat which can be set to 2C or 36F (For when I'm not in the shop).

I works awesome.

https://www.rezspec.com/catalog-udap.html

I have R16 in the walls, R16 overhead door and R22 in the attic.

Eric

[Loki]

Where I worked until last month, my employers had one of these... only bigger.

First a good amount of bark went in, then a few wheelbarrows of sawdust, and it would burn all day heating it up really nice.

[CubsFan]

I figured I'd give a quick update now that we're into the cold season.

Just to recap, I had a previously uninsulated garage. I have now insulated with R13 in the walls and R30 in the ceiling. Also, I added an electric heater ( http://www.amazon.com/Fahrenheat-Ceiling-Mount-Electric-Heater-FUH5-4/dp/B0000AXEZV/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_b )

So, how's it work? Actually, pretty well. I don't have any beforehand numbers, but the lowest temp I've seen in the garage since insulating is around 31 degrees (and this includes during nights of around -5 degrees. I've got the heater set to bring the temp up to around 48-50, and it does a pretty good job of it. Bringing it from 31-50 probably took an hour to an hour and a half. Bringing it up from around 40 degrees or so only takes 20 minutes to 1/2 hour. I've gotten a couple of electric bills since I started using it and though I don't have any hard numbers, I haven't seen a noticeable jump in my electric bill either.

Overall I'd say that I'm very pleased with the whole setup. The heater + insulation was around $600, and I needed to pay an electrician around $150 to put in a new circuit for a heater. But I've added probably 4-5 months of woodworking to the year by being able to work out there whenever I want during the winter.

[stidrvr]

Howdy all;

I've followed the various comments here with some interest with my background in Building Science.

Without being critical, many of the posts made previously are off the mark. There's no way I can address all the points in this short space but I'll make a few with a view to being helpful;

VAPOR BARRIER;

One of the most important, vital, steps in improving energy efficiency is the process of applying the vapor barrier which must be on the warm side of the insulation, (and not violate the "1/3 - 2/3rds" rule.)

The type of vapor barrier most recommended is 6 mil poly, CAREFULLY applied with overlapping seams that should be tightly sealed using continuous runs of red "Tuck Tape" or acoustical sealant. Seams should be over a vertical stud for backing.

(Other barriers are also acceptable such as oil-based paints etc.) All interior surfaces have to be addressed including walls, ceilings, bulkheads, with electrical boxes carefully sealed.

Any perforations through the vapor barrier such as electrical boxes, telephone boxes, wiring, plumbing, etc., must be completely sealed. ("tuck tape", acoustical sealant)

The time and care you take while applying the vapor barrier will pay huge dividends in energy savings, noise reduction, dust control, etc.

Be sure to seal between the bottom plate and the floor. This will stop air blowing in between the plate and the floor. (Our research revealed lots of air leakage between the plates and the floor as well as the area where the (rim) floor joists meet the headers. Bring your wall poly down to the bottom plate, lay a continuous bead of acoustical sealant on the side of the plate and then drape the poly over the bead, stapling it in place directly over the sealant. The goal is to seal tight any holes in the poly that are not directly over sealant through which air can move. When the poly is in place, take time to review your work with a roll of "tuck tape" and scissors in hand, cutting small pieces and sticking them securely over any holes caused by staples, careless punctures, etc.

Secondly, fiberglas insulation is the most popular form of insulative materials. Do NOT depend on the paper backing to provide any type of vapor barrier. The paper backing on each batt creates a continuous seam between every adjoining batt, the total air/vapor leakage on a 24 foot long wall is roughly equivalent to a hole in your wall measuring 16" x 16". Conclusion: you have to use a better air/vapor barrier such as 6 mil poly that is continous. Seal any punctures in the poly using pieces of red "Tuck Tape", taping over every hole to stop air movement.

Areas alongside window frames, door frames, and door sills can be sealed using spray foam with this caveat; be careful with some foams as they can expand force ("bow") the window frame and door frame and will make it distort, voiding any warranty from the manufacturer. Spray foam acts both as a vapor/air barrier and insulation so it's good because of these qualities.

Interestingly "Cubsfan" says, "I did put some type of covering over all of it, I didn't put a lot of care into the seams or anything." This is a common mistake we hear from homeowners that "rush through it" and will result in much higher heating costs as the heat migrates quickly through the walls and ceiling through every opening. A little more time and care applying a continuous vapor barrier will pay off bigtime later.

INSULATION;

As mentioned fiberglass batts are the most common and easily installed but these, as with the vapor barrier, should be done patiently and with care...not just "crammed" into the stud space. Also, fiberglass MUST be installed in the same orientation as the batt. You cannot cut a strip, turn it 90 degrees and cram it into a narrow space.

A better insulation material is spray foam, usually installed by trained professionals that arrive with a pump truck. This option is often most costly and beyond any but the most fervent builders.

One of the best performing houses I inspected was a builder that used 2x6 studs insulated with R20 fiberglass insulation on the perimeter walls of his house. On the warm side (as per code) he carefully applied 6 mil poly continuously with all seams taped and/or sealed with acoustical sealant. Note that at this point there were NO electrical lines, plumbing, or electrical boxes installed in the 2x6 stud space!

Then on the warm side of the 6 mil poly he screwed 2x3's (nailed through the 1.5" face so it gave another wall 2.5" deep) horizontally starting at the floor level and spaced every 24" up to the ceiling. Within THIS space he ran his electrical, cable, plumbing, telephone, etc. with no perforations through his 6 mil vapor barrier. Once that was done he installed R8 fiberglass batts into the 2x3 space and applied his drywall (sheetrock). When we did a "blower door" test on the house, the numbers were incredibly good.

One other thing, "pot lights" (recessed) in the ceiling are a prime area of heat loss. At best they can only be moderately insulated. Latest building science recommends pot lights be avoided in favor of surface mounted lights.

That's all for now. Obviously there is much, much more that can be offered on this subject. Keep in mind, the more severe the climate, the quicker the paybacks...and yes, the same principle for keeping heat in, works in southern climates for air-conditioning costs as well. Talk to your local utility company. They usually have a department that is knowledgeable and can offer advice for your particular area.

One other note: I would absolutely discourage using fiberglass batts with no vapor barrier in any shop. Fiberglass batts give off minute particles and they don't deteriorate in your lungs but stay in their original form. For safety, install vapor barrier and keep the fiberglass away from your work space.

When you've done a good job with your vapor barrier and insulation, you can choose a heater that will run efficiently and keep you comfortable with minimal operating expense. This is a much better approach than "buying a bigger heater."

Thanks for reading,

Saddlestrum.

While I dont doubt the fact that this is true, what Id really be interested in, is the differences between say an ok/half*ss job of doing vapor barrier, and an outstanding/perfect job, with all outlets seams etc. Im sure the efficency drops quite a bit, but really what does that matter? What matter is dollars. I know every little bit helps, but the way some of these people make it sound, you're losing hundreds of dollars a month if you dont do it this way. You could lose 10% effecency, but in the end, that may only cost you $1.37 a month.

[Vic]

While I dont doubt the fact that this is true, what Id really be interested in, is the differences between say an ok/half*ss job of doing vapor barrier, and an outstanding/perfect job, with all outlets seams etc. Im sure the efficency drops quite a bit, but really what does that matter? What matter is dollars. I know every little bit helps, but the way some of these people make it sound, you're losing hundreds of dollars a month if you dont do it this way. You could lose 10% effecency, but in the end, that may only cost you $1.37 a month.

Actually, the main point is to be anal about doing it right, because it's too easy to miss plenty for that 10% efficiency you mentioned. As an example, a 5% defect in the installation (area) of a batt equates to a 30% reduction in the R value for that cavity. THAT is just the insulation which is less a concern that air sealing. These are also considered "lost opportunities" because once you build and the house is done, you can't go back and fix your problems without a large expense. Plus, what is mentioned here does not take much more time than a sloppy job. It pays big money (yes, over time) to get it right. Both Don (Saddlestrum) and myself are in the energy efficiency field. You wouldn't believe how many people live in really expensive to heat housing. Btw, my shop costs me only about $30/month to heat in the winter. I keep it at 70 when I'm in it, which is most evenings. I have my thermostat set point at 45, but even on days/nights when it's down in the low teens, it's rare that it goes below 60. Considering I plan on being in this shop for the next 40 years, or so I think the small amount of time to do it right was a great investment.

[bywc]

I guess im just lucky my basement shop doesn't have a lick of insulation, bare concrete walls,floor boards above head are just open no insulation and a bare concrete floor, all I did when I decided to make it into a workshop was to remove one of the duct pipes that went to a room that had two vents, sealed the vent going upstairs and left the pipe just blowing into the basement thermostat is upside and so far haven't noticed any difference in my bill or it kicking on and off more and so far (touch wood!) it has kept a constant temp of 65-70 all year around. I thought about going to all the trouble of insulating the walls and ceiling when I first decided to make it my shop but I guess I lucked out as it seems to be just fine.The only time it did get down to 60 was when we had the big blizzard a few weeks back but the temps was in the -10 to -18

[JayWC]

My shop has in floor radiant heat. If you have the opportunity to start from scratch, I would highly recommend it. That way the heat keeps the floor warm. It warms the tools. The heat travels past you instead of just being at the ceiling. It is a very even heat because even when it is on, the concrete slab stays warm for a while. If you're planning to be in your shop for 5 years, break out the slab and run the tubes!