The Heresy Thread (Plywood vs Solid)

[Lee Bussy]

The application is a white oak round dining room table for which I need to make a new top.  It is sort of loosely "arts and crafts/mission", the only real style being four massive swooping legs attached to a hex pedestal.  The finish might be fumed ammonia, or it may be dark from years and years of use.  It splits allowing a max of three 9" leaves to be inserted.  Some of you have opined on this project in one way or another before, I swear it is destined to be my Magnum Opus.

The original top was veneer.  It had solid stock sandwiched by an intermediate veneer of what looks to be mahogany oriented with the grain perpendicular to the solid stock, and then white oak QS veneer matching the core's grain direction.  The veneer itself was very pretty.  It had no decorative edging, the corners were barely relieved.  The original top was 3/4" in thickness, with a bent-wood skirt set back about 3" from the edge.  In another thread I went back and forth on re-veneering, finally deciding that the bones were not in good enough shape to try to save.  So, I'm making a new top.

The question now is do I use plywood or solid?  Here's how I see this, and of course I would love to hear your thoughts:

Plywood Pros:

• Cost
• Availability
• No panel gluing
• Dimensional Stability
• "Unlimited" width (for the purposes of this project anyway)

Plywood Cons:

• Limited thicknesses
• Self respect factor
• Requires edging
• Thinner veneer

Solid Pros:

• Self respect!
• Unlimited configurations/sizes
• Edging not required

Solid Cons:

• Cost
• Availability
• Distance - ignoring cost and availability, it is an "import" for me here meaning getting "one more piece" is an ordeal
• Limited Widths/lack of "wide" figuring

Getting down to brass tacks, the table was not an expensive piece when new, is mostly a sentimental piece for me, and originally sort of had a plywood top.  The big question is: will I be able to live with myself?  The only thing that's not easier about plywood is the need to edge it.  I can probably do the whole table with one sheet (48" round and 3 ea. 48"x9" leaves).  So figure a sheet of 2A QS white oak plywood @ $100 vs ... at least 5 times that for the solid wood.

Help?

[TerryMcK]

Difficult choice if cost is a factor. As it is sentimental to you it may be good to make from solid to match the beefy legs. Then you can experiment with some nice edge details. But that will cost more that $100 as you have mentioned. If you do go down this route try to select the boards yourself for good matchup. Preferably boards from the same tree.

Edge banding plywood is not difficult but that thin veneer would put me off on a table that will get much usage.

[Lee Bussy]

I have not been able to source the boards locally.  I did find a place in NC that can get it to me for $4/bd ft.  These are 6"-9" boards so not incredibly wide.  That price seems WAY fair ... I have not heard back on if these are kiln dried and possibly a pic but man, that changes things doesn't it?

The only con it leaves is the narrower board.

[TerryMcK]

I normally order oak boards (or any boards for that matter) at around 10" wide so I can fit them on my 10" jointer. As this would be a glue up anyway judicious positioning of each board can end up with a nice presentation surface so 6" to 9" would not be an issue for me.

[Llama]

Mike hit this on the head.

I will add this...

You bring up a "self respect" factor. If you are not going to be happy with the end product being ply, then there is no need to talk about any other aspects. When there is doubt, there is no doubt. Make the thing out of solid wood, and be happy with it.

[Cochese]

Commercial veneered plywood is not durable enough for a table top, IMO.  The veneers are ridiculously thin and the substrate is usually poplar.  So basically you get poplar with a 1/100" oak layer on top.  It will look like dog poop in 6 months of use.  Dented, scratched, bubbled... you get the picture.  

I've had a better success with the Baltic birch I used for our kitchen table. Obviously, the table gets used multiple times a day. Does it look like it did when new? No. But it was a conscious decision for two reasons: size (with the associated reason of price - I needed a 5'x5' surface, or close enough), and skill. I had no faith in my ability to get a solid wood surface that big that right at the time. It needs to be sanded again and re-stained, and I'll be looking to do a real wood top in a couple of years.

All that said, I think if you have the skill, do the solid wood. I'm not someone who will ever say 100% wood in any project or bust, but with a show surface I think it will pay off.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Cochese

[Lee Bussy]

I normally order oak boards (or any boards for that matter) at around 10" wide so I can fit them on my 10" jointer. As this would be a glue up anyway judicious positioning of each board can end up with a nice presentation surface so 6" to 9" would not be an issue for me.

I wish I could get boards that width.  It's hard enough to find 5/4 QSWO at any width.

Commercial veneered plywood is not durable enough for a table top, IMO.  The veneers are ridiculously thin and the substrate is usually poplar.  So basically you get poplar with a 1/100" oak layer on top.  It will look like dog poop in 6 months of use.  Dented, scratched, bubbled... you get the picture.  

That's a good point.  I am not sure about the makeup of this plywood but I can go look.  I checked with Paxton for this.

You bring up a "self respect" factor. If you are not going to be happy with the end product being ply, then there is no need to talk about any other aspects. When there is doubt, there is no doubt. Make the thing out of solid wood, and be happy with it.

Oh that was tongue in cheek really.  I made a lot of things out of plywood before I learned it was the "wrong thing."  

I lied on the delivered price for the QSWO ... it's closer to $8 delivered.  Anyone in NC driving to KC anytime soon?  

I've had a better success with the Baltic birch I used for our kitchen table. Obviously, the table gets used multiple times a day. Does it look like it did when new? No. But it was a conscious decision for two reasons: size (with the associated reason of price - I needed a 5'x5' surface, or close enough), and skill. I had no faith in my ability to get a solid wood surface that big that right at the time. It needs to be sanded again and re-stained, and I'll be looking to do a real wood top in a couple of years.

All that said, I think if you have the skill, do the solid wood. I'm not someone who will ever say 100% wood in any project or bust, but with a show surface I think it will pay off.

I am not highly skilled.  My glue-up only has to be 4' wide though because this is a split table with leafs.  

[sjk]

How about both?

Use a core of plywood and glue on your own, shop-cut veneer?  You can make the veneer thick enough that it will stand up to the use far better than the 1/42" plywood face veneer.

I think this is the route Marc took on the Gaming Table project going on right now.

[Lee Bussy]

How about both?

Use a core of plywood and glue on your own, shop-cut veneer?  You can make the veneer thick enough that it will stand up to the use far better than the 1/42" plywood face veneer.

I think this is the route Marc took on the Gaming Table project going on right now.

I don't have a setup to do veneer, never done it.  It seems to me the learning curve is sort of high for a large piece like that.  I started this by "re-veneering" as my plan but quickly left that course because it seemed rather iffy.  I suppose I could purchase Maple ply core for half the price.  Then I could spend 4x that on new tools.

 

[Lee Bussy]

Did some rough numbers on the veneer:

• $89 for a 4x8 sheet of quartersawn white oak 2-ply.  
• $70 for a backing sheet of 2-ply white oak (not the cheapest but ~$5 more than the cheapest
• $59 for a 4x8 sheet of Maple ply

That's $218 in raw materials against roughly $315 for the solid ... unless I'm missing something?  This is how I ended up leaning towards solid in the first place, being a little easier to work with.  Of course plywood has that whole dimensional stability that solid (even quartersawn) does not have.

[Lee Bussy]

Surprisingly, BB is not available here in town.  I imagine Paxton could order it.

Someone else recommended MDF core.  I'd have to use thread inserts but it would durned sure be smooth and flat.

The veneer I see available is 1/32 and the US-made plywood claims to be 1/32.  Am I missing something?

[Lee Bussy]

Here's a piece of QSWO out of their rack:

I'm pretty sure I'm set on going solid ... veneer on such large pieces is probably not a good first project.  Straight QSWO ply is MDF-core so flat but heavy as hell and not good with screws so that would mean a buncha inserts.  Both of those would require edging on the main table and the leaves, 588" worth (49').  While that would give the option of a contrasting border, this table is not intended to be that fancy so it's purely utilitarian.  That makes plywood more work I think.

The boards he sent a pic of are nicely flecked - should be pretty when done.

[TerryMcK]

Yes go solid. If you have never veneered before and don't have a bagpress/vacuum pump then attemping a veneer on something that size is not for the faint hearted.

[Lee Bussy]

Is that sapwood on the left?  If so, is that anything to worry about other than having to get creative with the stain?  (this is kiln dried)

If it is a "bad thing", would you estimate that at 10%?  I'm guessing if it is a bad thing that I can cut it from the main table and use it in the leaves maybe.

 

[Lee Bussy]

I was chatting with Eric about this too - I can rip the sapwood out and use it for the leaves.  Will hardly use those anyway and generally under a tablecloth.   That's if I end up needing it.

Thanks for the tip on the stain/dye - will go do some reading.

Edited November 28, 2015 by LBussy