What's going to happen?

[wchesterpa]

So I decided to build a case using rabbets and dadoes as a practice piece--I hadn't ever done a full case (including shelves, dividers and drawer boxes) this way before. Since it was practice I didn't use particularly good materials, mostly A/C plywood.

Now it's actually turned out pretty well. I have a few sheets of hardwood veneer I picked up somewhere to use for practice at some point. I've now been thinking about veneering the outside of the case to dress it up, another opportunity to practice.

Just doing some searching around I see a lot of opinions on what to do or not to do when veneering and lots of warnings about terrible consequences. So I'm interested in thoughts of what I can or should do.

I was planning on using the method of putting a thin layer of yellow glue on case and veneer, letting them dry and then using the iron to melt the glue. Should I do the case pieces before I glue the case together? Should I glue the case together and then apply veneer? Should I abandon this as a crazy idea, leave the case as is and build another one with better materials?

[wchesterpa]

No one has any thoughts on this?

[bywc]

To many variables not listed and no pictures pretty much impossible guessing blind to answer realistically if all your wanting is a uninformed guess.. then sure go ahead and veneer it and good luck hope it turned out well.

[PaulMarcel]

Like Paul said, it would be nice to see more. So, some random thoughts.

If you're considering the iron-on route, it must be raw veneer (no PSA backing). I think the iron-on method would be pretty easy; I haven't done it with veneer, but have with edge banding and it was fool-proof enough for me to get it to work. One caution: the glue you'll smear on the back of the veneer will make it curl up because of the moisture. I'm thinking that wetting down the veneer on both sides first then applying the glue would work the best to keep it flat. Instead of yellow glue, I'd definitely go the hide glue route. If you don't have pot hide glue, the liquid hide glue will work. It easily melts under heat so you could move the veneer around even later if you find an issue, the squeeze-out usually finishes nicely. Excess can also be easily wiped away with a damp cloth. Once finished, the reversibility of the glue won't be an issue.

Another option is contact cement, but you have no recourse if you put it down crooked.

Whether to put it on first or after assembly depends on your build. A big cabinet might be easier to veneer after you assemble it and clean up any joints; it is plenty strong to support you while working. A jewelry box, not so much.

Post some pictures and maybe we'll change our minds

[Vic]

My biggest concern with it being A/C ply is imperfection telescoping through the veneer.

[Bob Rozaieski]

I was planning on using the method of putting a thin layer of yellow glue on case and veneer, letting them dry and then using the iron to melt the glue.

You can't do this with yellow glue. Yellow glue is PVA (poly vinyl alcohol). Basically, it's a plastic. Once it's cured, you cannot reactivate it again. All you'll do is burn the glue, and likely the veneer as well. If you want to do what you are referring to above, you need to use hot animal hide glue, which can be reactivated/reversed with heat.

[TonyV]

You can't do this with yellow glue. Yellow glue is PVA (poly vinyl alcohol). Basically, it's a plastic. Once it's cured, you cannot reactivate it again. All you'll do is burn the glue, and likely the veneer as well. If you want to do what you are referring to above, you need to use hot animal hide glue, which can be reactivated/reversed with heat.

I've read about this technique in the past, too, for veneering. I've never tried it, but I have read about it.

Tony

[Pete Bennett]

Using hot animal glue is very very easy, and any mistakes are almost too easily rectified. you simply re-heat and move or strip and re-do if it's tat bad.

For veneering you need a good supply of hide glue, preferably the pearls and a good hot glue pot. My old one was water filled but I've got a thermostatically controlled one nowadays. Place as much of the pearls in the pot as you think you may need and then top up with water until they are completely immersed. It's best to do this the night before but, it is not critical. When you're ready turn on the heat gently if it's a water pot over a gas ring or similar, just turn on the electric if you've got the thermo job. Once all the glue is liquid you will almost certainly need to adjust the consistency, You are looking to get it completely liquid, runny even. Once the glue will run smoothly off your brush without any globules dropping off or a slightly dribbly, unsteady, intermittent flow. Add water or glue until the smooth easy running consistency is achieved, then, you're ready. It is not too critical but, you do not want it too weak and runny either. I'm afraid it's another place where there is no real answer only experience.

Before you begin get an electric iron, Not the wife's best steam iron, unless you're really a Spagnuolo Macho man, and set it to a reasonably warm setting, Not too hot. Get a good bowl of warm water to hand and plenty of rags, or a sponge. Dip the rag or sponge in the water and lightly dampen your veneer on the top surface, try to get it evenly damp but not wet. Turn it over and brush a good even coat of glue over it and put it to one side. Then cover a similar area of your groundwork with glue. Try to obtain a good even coat but apart from too many thick blobs it's not critical, just makes the next stage easier. It is definitely better not to try and lay too large a piece at a time.

Put the pieces aside for a few minutes. Until they are touch dry with no takiness. If you lightly brush the fleshy part of your palm at the base of the thumb across the surface it should feel quite dry, and not sticky.

Once you've reached this stage, and it doesn't take long. Lay the veneer on the ground as close to it's final position as possible, but, again this is not critical as it's easily moved during the next part of the operation.

Next damp the surface of the veneer and begin re-heating the glue using the iron. Once you feel it beginning to melt take your veneer hammer or what ever you intend to use to squeeze out the surplus glue. Start in the centre of the panel and squeegee out the surplus with moderate pressure towards the edges. Once you get the glue moving. The process is one of constantly heating and squeegeeing until you get as much glue out as possible but making certain you maintain adhesion. The main thing is to make sure there are no bubbles, or trapped air or unstuck areas. It will be necessary to re- dampen the surface and keep using the iron. If you get the two right you should end up with a very firm well laid surface and a reasonably clean iron face. If too much glue turns your iron into a mud covered mess you are not keeping the surface damp enough. Once you have a pristine flat surface without any apparent blisters, run the iron very quickly and VERY lightly over the surface to dry it. If you are laying several sheets of veneer. glue up several at once and set aside. Once you have the first piece perfectly laid overlap it with the second piece by a few millimetres, quarter to half an inch. repeat the process as before. When you are satisfied Take a straight edge and cut carefully through both pieces of the overlapping veneers, carefully heat the join, peel away the top piece and then using a thin blade carefully ease the edge up and retrieve the underneath piece, press the two edges of the laid veneer down and run the iron over the joint and apply the veneer hammer or roller a few times along the join which should now be almost invisible. Once you've finished the panel lay it aside until the next day. Then go carefully over the entire surface tapping lightly with a knuckle. If you hear any dull muffled sounds you have a blister of unstuck veneer, reheat this part carefully and apply pressure as before. If it is obvious there is no glue beneath to stick it cut a thin slit and very gently ease the edges just enough to get a slither of glue soaked veneer in and spread it in. Re heat and re-lay. Sometimes this is easy sometimes it's a pig, but somehow you have to get it stuck.

It actually takes less time and is much easier to do than it is to explain. And remember, the Ancient Egyptians invented the stuff and some of their furniture is still around after more than four thousand years.

Happy veneering

Pete

[Pete Bennett]

Using hot animal glue is very very easy, and any mistakes are almost too easily rectified. you simply re-heat and move or strip and re-do if it's tat bad.

For veneering you need a good supply of hide glue, preferably the pearls and a good hot glue pot. My old one was water filled but I've got a thermostatically controlled one nowadays. Place as much of the pearls in the pot as you think you may need and then top up with water until they are completely immersed. It's best to do this the night before but, it is not critical. When you're ready turn on the heat gently if it's a water pot over a gas ring or similar, just turn on the electric if you've got the thermo job. Once all the glue is liquid you will almost certainly need to adjust the consistency, You are looking to get it completely liquid, runny even. Once the glue will run smoothly off your brush without any globules dropping off or a slightly dribbly, unsteady, intermittent flow is achieved you're ready. It is not too critical but, you do not want it too weak and runny either. I'm afraid it's another place where there is no real answer only experience.

Before you begin get an alectric iron, Not the wife's best steam iron, unless you're really a Spagnuolo Macho man, and set it to a reasonably warm setting, Not too hot. Get a good bowl of warm water to hand and plenty of rags, or a sponge. Dip the rag or sponge in the water and lightly dampen your veneer on the top surface, try to get it evenly damp but not wet. Turn it over and brush a good even coat of glue over it and put it to one side. Then cover a similar area of your groundwork with glue. Try to obtain a good even coat but apart from too many thick blobs it's not critical, just makes the next stage easier. It is definitely better not to try and lay too large a piece at a time.

Put the pieces aside for a few minutes. Until they are touch dry with no takiness. If you lightly brush the fleshy part of your palm at the base of the thumb across the surface it should feel quite dry, and not sticky.

Once you've reached this stage, and it doesn't take long. Lay the veneer on the ground as close to it's final position as possible, but, again this is not critical as it's easily moved during the next part of the operation.

Next damp the surface of the veneer and begin re-heating the glue using the iron. Once you feel it beginning to melt take your veneer hammer or what ever you intend to use to squeeze out the surplus glue. Start in the centre of the panel and squeegee out the surplus with moderate pressure. Once you get the glue moving. The process is one of constantly heating and squeegeeing until you get as much glue out as possible but making certain you maintain adhesion. The main thing is to make sure there are no bubbles, or trapped air or unstuck areas. It will be necessary to re- dampen the surface and keep using the iron. If you get the two right you should end up with a very firm well laid surface and a reasonably clean iron face. If too much glue turns your iron into a mud covered mess you are not keeping the surface damp enough. Once you have a pristine flat surface without any apparent blisters, run the iron very quickly and VERY lightly over the surface to dry it. If you are laying several sheets of veneer. glue up several at once and set aside. Once you have the first pieces perfectly laid overlap it with the second piece by a few millimetres, quarter to half an inch. repeat the process as before. When you are satisfied Take a straight edge and cut carefully through both pieces of the overlapping veneers, carefully heat the join, peel away the top piece and then using a thin blade carefully ease the edge up and retrieve the underneath piece, press the two edges of the laid veneer down and run the iron over the joint and apply the veneer hammer or roller a few times along the join which should now be almost invisible.

It actually takes less time and is much easier to do than it is to explain. And remember, the Ancient Egyptians invented the stuff and some of their furniture is still around after more than four thousand years.

Happy veneering

Pete

[PaulDerrico]

I've done this only a couple of times in the past, so don't take me fore some sort of veneering specialist. But I do have some rules-of-thumb. Never use yellow glue. I'd definitely use hide glue or maybe even white glue if you need a faster set time. Hide glue kicks butt because it IS reversible, like everyone mentioned.

Also, you need to contemplate veneering both sides of each piece of wood. Veneer on one side will cause warping in hardwoods. You might be able to get away with it using plywood, but that's something to think about.

If you want to hide the joinery, apply the veneer after the case is assembled. I cant think of any way you could veneer first and then hide the rabbit joinery later. If you veneer afterward, then you can pretty much glue and screw the thing and no one would ever know (except for those of us on this post, LOL, but we're not judging)

And unless you have a vacuum press, you're gonna need lots and lots of clamps and lots and lots of cauls and weight.

Good luck

[wchesterpa]

Gentlemen, thanks for these thoughts. My general conclusion here is that I've got enough experiments and practice going on with this project. Save the veneering experiments for another project. But I may change my mind, as I often do on things like this. I'll post some pictures when I'm further along regardless.

[wchesterpa]

By the way, after reading some of this I went back to look at what I had seen about using yellow glue and iron method and there are plenty of people out there who say it works very well, e.g.: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/2795

I guess I'll have to run some experiments on that too.