video: Sharpening My Way

[derekcohen]

Hi Eric

As I said, whatever works for you. However, a well done hollow grind ensures that there is minimal steel to hone. And a hollow grind removes steel from the inside of the face, so it should not shorten a blade. If the hollow grind leaves a wide band at the front of the face, then you are honing a lot more steel than in my picture. Tom mentioned that he had a CBN wheel on his grinder. I would use it. That's what I do. I do not need to grind again for a long, long time. 

Lapping out a chip with a honing guide can be time consuming, not only because the chip must come out, but because in doing so you create a wide secondary bevel. Everything is downhill from there. I would rather use the grinder to remove the chip, create a fresh hollow to the edge, hone efficiently, and get on with the woodworking. 

Here is a video on sharpening by David Weaver. This is different in that he freehands. However he only uses 2 stones, and this is on a hollow grind (he also uses a CBN wheel, which I put him onto). It is long (20 min in all, but he gets into it at about 3 min) and worth watching ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G85B6iVCyMo

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eric.]

27 minutes ago, derekcohen said:

a well done hollow grind

I use Japanese chisels so hollow grinds are out, at least according to the conventional wisdom.  Also, I don't have a grinder, so hollow grinds are out for that reason as well.  I regrind my bevels on my DiaFlat when necessary.  It doesn't take long, maybe thirty seconds of aggressive back and forth.

[Unknown craftsman]

Stop don't start that here.

 

[Tom King]

Derek, notice the chisel in the video had just come from getting paint up off of a brick floor.   The setup is there ready to go.  Changing stones takes little to no time.  I stated that hobbyists didn't need so many steps, but I find it takes fewer strokes in total the more steps in stones you take.

I needed a system that my helpers could use too.  They are both really big guys, who can bench press over 400 lbs, but hands are very thick, and not so suited for precise work by those hands.  When we were on a job where it was fairly cold, with no running water, we used oil stones, and that's why I bought the Veritas Mk II guide.  We were removing about 35 cubic feet of dirty floor board wood, and I needed them to be able to sharpen their own chisels, even if I did the grinding first. 

I completely agree with Eric's post following Derek's first post. After decades, I finally came to the conclusion that micro-bevels take more time in the long run.  With fast cutting stones, there is no time saved any kind of way by creating micro-bevels providing you keep the final bevel angle at an accurate angle.  I orginally went back to using a guide with this setup so my helpers could handle it too, but ended up liking it myself too.  If it's all set up ready to go, starting at any point, there is time saved, not extra time taken.  The time saved may have little to no significance for a hobbyist.  It all adds up for us though, and doing this for a living for 43 years, I'm all about improving efficiency.

With some jobs we do, chisels might be sharpened many times a day.  Sometimes we have an audience watching, including the people paying us. 

Sharpening threads always end up offending someone's ego if they have established a method that works for them that's different from the one presented.  Everyone needs to filter out the information that works for them.

I have since changed that 3,000 stone to a Select II, not only because I wasn't that trilled with the feel of the New Cerax, but because it wouldn't cut my jointer knives very well.  I noticed in my own video that I took 18 strokes (still not enough on that stone, whereas I like about 10 on each stone) on the New Cerax, and when on the next 6k stone it still wasn't where it should have been.  I sharpen jointer knives before install with this same setup if I'm doing something tearout prone, only I hone them by hand.  I'll have another video on that fairly soon I hope, which includes how to very quickly install straight jointer knives with nothing more than a wrench and a strip of wood in seconds.

With that many stones, it gives me more starting points.  For instance the chisel that had been rubbing paint up off of a brick floor went all the way back to the 400.  If I am just working wood, I rarely will start coarser than 6k.  I think I stated that several times, but people seem to have a hard time taking it all in.

I intend to add to this thread when I get the chance.  I'll show pictures of the oil stones I started with, and the progression from there, discussing each.  It will take some time though.  I just typed this out while waiting for breakfast.

[derekcohen]

10 hours ago, Eric. said:

I use Japanese chisels so hollow grinds are out, at least according to the conventional wisdom.  Also, I don't have a grinder, so hollow grinds are out for that reason as well.  I regrind my bevels on my DiaFlat when necessary.  It doesn't take long, maybe thirty seconds of aggressive back and forth.

Yes, Eric. Laminated Japanese blades are a different kettle of fish. The lamination is soft and abrades quickly. These are not relevant to a discussion about honing Western chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

24 minutes ago, Tom King said:

Derek, notice the chisel in the video had just come from getting paint up off of a brick floor.  .... I needed a system that my helpers could use too ... With that many stones, it gives me more starting points. 

Hi Tom

I did not get that this system was for your workplace. The impression I had was that it was a demo for "hobbiests". Context is important.

Now my post was not intended to criticise, and this should not be inferred from my comments. It was intended to raise questions, and this is important for those starting out or wanting to improve their skills in honing blades .. to ask why one does what one does, and not slavishly copy someone else, just because.

"After decades, I finally came to the conclusion that micro-bevels take more time in the long run.  With fast cutting stones, there is no time saved any kind of way by creating micro-bevels providing you keep the final bevel angle at an accurate angle".

I've been honing decades as well. I came to the conclusion that faster honing results from working reduced areas of steel. My preference is to create a microbevel on a hollow grind, which I freehand directly on the hollow (i.e. the hollow acts as a jig). I'm not trying to sell this method. It is a contrast to what you do. I refer readers back to the link I posted before. Try both if you can. explore what you find easier. Then stick with it until you master it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom King]

If anyone read the text along with the youtube video, I didn't realize that I wasn't being clear.  I'm new at this video stuff.

Whether with a jig, or by hand, it doesn't matter if the area of the bevel increases through successive honing, whether by hand or by jig.  It only matter if one uses micro-bevels or not.  With the first sign of a micro-bevel, any use of the face is out the window.

[Tpt life]

I think this is why I prefer your method Tom. I do find reasons to use the face. No offense intended Derek. 

[derekcohen]

None taken. There is no "right" system in sharpening. It must be what works best for you, not for me. That was the reason ai posted - just to provide a contrast for those searching.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Woodenskye]

Out of some laziness, I decided not to do micro bevel on my chisels.  I have found that resharpening doesn't take to long after being done the first time.  

However with plane blades I would like to do the ruler trick, however does anyone know how thick the ruler should be? Where did you get them from?

[Eric.]

1 hour ago, Woodenskye said:

Out of some laziness, I decided not to do micro bevel on my chisels.  I have found that resharpening doesn't take to long after being done the first time.  

However with plane blades I would like to do the ruler trick, however does anyone know how thick the ruler should be? Where did you get them from?

 

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/measuring-marking-lie-nielsen-6-steel-rule-

[derekcohen]

with plane blades I would like to do the ruler trick, however does anyone know how thick the ruler should be? Where did you get them from?

The steel ruler needs to be exactly 1.219mm thick and 11.887mm wide. 

Don't fuss too much about it. Whatever you use should remove no more that 1/2 - 2/3 degree of clearance angle. That is negligible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Isaac]

17 minutes ago, Eric. said:

 

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/measuring-marking-lie-nielsen-6-steel-rule-

A lie Nielsen product for $3? Sold!

[Woodenskye]

19 hours ago, Eric. said:

 

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/measuring-marking-lie-nielsen-6-steel-rule-

 

19 hours ago, derekcohen said:

with plane blades I would like to do the ruler trick, however does anyone know how thick the ruler should be? Where did you get them from?

The steel ruler needs to be exactly 1.219mm thick and 11.887mm wide. 

Don't fuss too much about it. Whatever you use should remove no more that 1/2 - 2/3 degree of clearance angle. That is negligible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you to the both of you.