Dovetail Practice

[konkers]

(also posted over at lumberjocks http://lumberjocks.com/konkers/blog/20313)

I just joined the Guild and am going to follow along with the Wall Hanging Cabinet build. There’s a lot of dovetails in that plan. I’m intrigued by hand cutting them but, having never cut one before, I’m going to need a lot of practice. So here it goes:

First up, the tools I’m using: Adjustable square, pencil, marking gauge, and dovetail angle template for layout. A dozuki for cutting the pins and tails and a fret saw for removing the waste. A couple of chisels and a mallet for fitting.

I made two attempts on Sunday which were pretty bad yet educational. Last night I cut some stock for a 7” square box with two sides 1/2” thick and the other two 3/4” thick. First lesson here is to make sure you know the orientation of each board when you’re laying out the joints. As you can see here, I failed:

Now lets take a look at the joints in all their humbling macro lens glory:

The first joint I over cut twice on the tail board. The tails and pins sit proud. There some gaps at the bottom of the the tails an pins as well. All in all this one came out better than I was expecting.

The second one I got carried away trying to fit the joint and ended up removing way to much material yielding a very loose joint.

The third try was much better. There are a few gaps around the joint and it does not quite sit square but miles better than the second one.

The fourth was where I got the front and back of the tail board confused and laid it out backwards. Opps. It’s the nicest fitting of all of the joints but has some gaps at the bottoms of the the tail. I’m still trying figure out how to set my marking gauge so that the line it cuts is perfect.

Things that are proving tough/need practice:

• I’m worried that I’m cutting do deep on the marking gauge. It does not seem like those lines will sand out very well. In fact I’m having trouble imagining a setting that will be both good at scoring the fibers along the cut and not marring the surface more that can be sanded out. I should play around with sanding at different depth settings.
  
• Cutting 90 degrees to the face for the tails and 90 degrees to the end for the pins is going to require a quite a bit more practice. One trick I learned on the fourth joint was to check to tails for square before transferring to the in board and clean up any error with a chisel.
  
• Getting the marking gauge set correctly so that there’s no gab at the bottom and the pins and tails do not sit proud.
  

More practice to come…

-Erik

[PaulMarcel]

Very cool post, Erik! Also a nice haul from Japan Woodworker (I'm assuming )

So I'm unclear what the issue is with the marking gauge. Is the setting moving as you mark it? I zoomed the first picture and can't see how the knife is inserted. Usually there's a flat and a beveled side. The flat is away from the fence as it helps the fence hug the end. For now, don't worry about marking too deeply... it should help you set the chisel for socket cleaning. Go lighter with it later if you want to remove the lines (some people like them). You'll likely be planing the sides anyway to flush the pins/tails and could remove the lines then.

In looking at some of the pictures, it seems like some shoulder cuts aren't really straight (last picture, left side). Are you using the dozuki to cut the shoulder or something else? (chisel, fretsaw) The dozuki should give you a clean shoulder.

Wilbur Pan posted to his blog how to cut well with a Japanese saw. It's worth a read (so's the rest of his blog ). If you are putting the saw teeth down flat then sawing, it can be more difficult to maintain square (well, unless you are Toshio Odate). You kinda want to start flat to mark the top of the cut then drop your cutting stroke down to cut both the top and frontmost lines simultaneously. You can see both lines clearly and should be able to saw them accurately; with that much kerf, the back side falls into line.

Lastly, dunno if you are pins-first or tails-first (and it doesn't matter), but whichever you cut first, make the cuts square and straight. If you are deviating off a tail line, so be it, but keep going square and straight. You'll be transferring the cut lines to the other board (pins in this example). On that second board you have to be more particular. Deviating into more waste material is okay as you can pare to the line. If you start to cross the line, correct the cut. Actually, just noticed you said tails first http://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png' alt=':)'> (which is wrong! pins first! )

Definitely, kudos for all the practice and double that for planning on doing the guild build with hand-cut dovetails.

[flairwoodworks]

Hi Erik and welcome to the forum.

Are you using poplar? I learned to cut dovetails on the scraps I had laying around in my shop, which happened to be maple. It's much easier to build confidence in something soft like pine, then move on to harder woods. Good choice to start with single dovetail corners. Once you start using multiple tails per corner, fitting gets a lot more complicated.

With a wheel-marking guage, it is really easy to set to the exact depth. It's a little trickier with a cutting- or pin-type and just takes some care. I can't tell what the type of locking mechanism your gauge has. Remember that it isn't actually that critical. Most woodworkers like to leave one of the boards proud of the other to make flushing them up easier. If you make the end-grain proud, you have less to remove and it's easy work with a sharp block plane. If you leave the end-grain recessed, just a couple passes with a bench plane will bring the long grain flush with the end grain.

Regarding marking gauge marks, I think most people leave them as an indication of a hand-cut joint.

If you are having a hard time knowing where to remove material, try fitting the joint, then looking for the burnished (shiny) areas. Those are the areas that are rubbing and they need to be removed. Take your time. You'll get there eventually.

This was my perhaps my most challenging joinery project... in teak no less.

For fun, I've attached a couple pictures showing my very first dovetail joint and the tools I used. I think this joint is mahogany and pine. It's easy to get a good fit between hard and soft woods, fairly easy with two softwoods, and difficult with hardwoods.

[Pete Bennett]

(also posted over at lumberjocks http://lumberjocks.com/konkers/blog/20313)

I just joined the Guild and am going to follow along with the Wall Hanging Cabinet build. There’s a lot of dovetails in that plan. I’m intrigued by hand cutting them but, having never cut one before, I’m going to need a lot of practice. So here it goes:

First up, the tools I’m using: Adjustable square, pencil, marking gauge, and dovetail angle template for layout. A dozuki for cutting the pins and tails and a fret saw for removing the waste. A couple of chisels and a mallet for fitting.

I made two attempts on Sunday which were pretty bad yet educational. Last night I cut some stock for a 7” square box with two sides 1/2” thick and the other two 3/4” thick. First lesson here is to make sure you know the orientation of each board when you’re laying out the joints. As you can see here, I failed:

Now lets take a look at the joints in all their humbling macro lens glory:

The first joint I over cut twice on the tail board. The tails and pins sit proud. There some gaps at the bottom of the the tails an pins as well. All in all this one came out better than I was expecting.

The second one I got carried away trying to fit the joint and ended up removing way to much material yielding a very loose joint.

The third try was much better. There are a few gaps around the joint and it does not quite sit square but miles better than the second one.

The fourth was where I got the front and back of the tail board confused and laid it out backwards. Opps. It’s the nicest fitting of all of the joints but has some gaps at the bottoms of the the tail. I’m still trying figure out how to set my marking gauge so that the line it cuts is perfect.

Things that are proving tough/need practice:

• I’m worried that I’m cutting do deep on the marking gauge. It does not seem like those lines will sand out very well. In fact I’m having trouble imagining a setting that will be both good at scoring the fibers along the cut and not marring the surface more that can be sanded out. I should play around with sanding at different depth settings.
  
• Cutting 90 degrees to the face for the tails and 90 degrees to the end for the pins is going to require a quite a bit more practice. One trick I learned on the fourth joint was to check to tails for square before transferring to the in board and clean up any error with a chisel.
  
• Getting the marking gauge set correctly so that there’s no gab at the bottom and the pins and tails do not sit proud.
  

More practice to come…

-Erik

Congrats Erik. But, looking at your marking gauge it looks like a standard Marples or similar cutting gauge. If it is you will be locking out with a thumb screw I guess. From your pic it looks as though you have the knife blade in reverse, placing it at an angle to the body of the gauge. The brass taper peg that clamps it should be the other side of the blade. This way the blade will be vertical and the ground face edge should be facing the shoulder of the body.

Pete

[konkers]

Very cool post, Erik! Also a nice haul from Japan Woodworker (I'm assuming )

Yep

So I'm unclear what the issue is with the marking gauge. Is the setting moving as you mark it? I zoomed the first picture and can't see how the knife is inserted. Usually there's a flat and a beveled side. The flat is away from the fence as it helps the fence hug the end. For now, don't worry about marking too deeply... it should help you set the chisel for socket cleaning. Go lighter with it later if you want to remove the lines (some people like them). You'll likely be planing the sides anyway to flush the pins/tails and could remove the lines then.

The only issue I'm having is getting a feel for when to set the blade of the other piece of wood when transferring it's thickness. I'm getting a bit better on that front.

In looking at some of the pictures, it seems like some shoulder cuts aren't really straight (last picture, left side). Are you using the dozuki to cut the shoulder or something else? (chisel, fretsaw) The dozuki should give you a clean shoulder.

Wilbur Pan posted to his blog how to cut well with a Japanese saw. It's worth a read (so's the rest of his blog ). If you are putting the saw teeth down flat then sawing, it can be more difficult to maintain square (well, unless you are Toshio Odate). You kinda want to start flat to mark the top of the cut then drop your cutting stroke down to cut both the top and frontmost lines simultaneously. You can see both lines clearly and should be able to saw them accurately; with that much kerf, the back side falls into line.

I'm using the dozuki to cut the shoulders. I just need more practice at cutting square. I tried Wilbur Pan's method but found I get better results by sawing straight down. Some of the irregularity you're seeing is me trying to adjust the shoulder with my chisel.

Lastly, dunno if you are pins-first or tails-first (and it doesn't matter), but whichever you cut first, make the cuts square and straight. If you are deviating off a tail line, so be it, but keep going square and straight. You'll be transferring the cut lines to the other board (pins in this example). On that second board you have to be more particular. Deviating into more waste material is okay as you can pare to the line. If you start to cross the line, correct the cut. Actually, just noticed you said tails first http://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png' alt=':)'> (which is wrong! pins first! )

I find it easier to follow a straight up and down line of the pins than the angle of the tails so I cut them first.

Definitely, kudos for all the practice and double that for planning on doing the guild build with hand-cut dovetails.

Thanks

[konkers]

Hi Erik and welcome to the forum.

Thanks

Are you using poplar? I learned to cut dovetails on the scraps I had laying around in my shop, which happened to be maple. It's much easier to build confidence in something soft like pine, then move on to harder woods. Good choice to start with single dovetail corners. Once you start using multiple tails per corner, fitting gets a lot more complicated.

Yeah, I'm using poplar. Nice and cheep.

With a wheel-marking guage, it is really easy to set to the exact depth. It's a little trickier with a cutting- or pin-type and just takes some care. I can't tell what the type of locking mechanism your gauge has. Remember that it isn't actually that critical. Most woodworkers like to leave one of the boards proud of the other to make flushing them up easier. If you make the end-grain proud, you have less to remove and it's easy work with a sharp block plane. If you leave the end-grain recessed, just a couple passes with a bench plane will bring the long grain flush with the end grain.

Whee more tools to buy. I've been meaning to get some planes.

Regarding marking gauge marks, I think most people leave them as an indication of a hand-cut joint.

That seems to be a common answer I'm getting. I'm still undecided how I feel about the way they look. Maybe I'll make and finish a test box.

If you are having a hard time knowing where to remove material, try fitting the joint, then looking for the burnished (shiny) areas. Those are the areas that are rubbing and they need to be removed. Take your time. You'll get there eventually.

Thanks for the tip.

This was my perhaps my most challenging joinery project... in teak no less.

Looks great!

[konkers]

Congrats Erik. But, looking at your marking gauge it looks like a standard Marples or similar cutting gauge. If it is you will be locking out with a thumb screw I guess. From your pic it looks as though you have the knife blade in reverse, placing it at an angle to the body of the gauge. The brass taper peg that clamps it should be the other side of the blade. This way the blade will be vertical and the ground face edge should be facing the shoulder of the body.

Thanks, I played around with the gauge a bit and can't get the blade to sit vertical. I think I'm going to have to hit the hole with a small file to get it to sit right.

[superdav]

first welcome konkers, my best advise is your going to have to get to know each tool personally. get online and watch as much as you can on dovetail cutting. everyone and i mean everyone has a different method. example if you cut your pins first and your tails are a little proud. how did you set your gauge. did you set the blade dead on the edge of the width or just over? some will tell you that hardwood is easier to start with. i started with pine. i made a joint adjusted one or two things cut it off and went at it again. the hardest thing that gives me fits is keeping the shoulder cut on the tails square and even with each other. no matter how well i mark it human saw error makes one of them just off a little bit. the most important thing for me is body position. where you are and how comfortable the cut is.try try again leave a little and chisel a little off.

good luck and practice

this is just my poor old opinion

my first set looked like a beaver cut em. oh the rustic look.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Paul-Marcel
Corrected image link

[kesac]

For a first effor that is just fine. In a week or so, 3-4 attempts, things will start falling into place for you, and you won't remember just what your problem used to be.

You don't really need any advice. You are just about to get it.

(also posted over at lumberjocks http://lumberjocks.com/konkers/blog/20313)

I just joined the Guild and am going to follow along with the Wall Hanging Cabinet build. There’s a lot of dovetails in that plan. I’m intrigued by hand cutting them but, having never cut one before, I’m going to need a lot of practice. So here it goes:

First up, the tools I’m using: Adjustable square, pencil, marking gauge, and dovetail angle template for layout. A dozuki for cutting the pins and tails and a fret saw for removing the waste. A couple of chisels and a mallet for fitting.

I made two attempts on Sunday which were pretty bad yet educational. Last night I cut some stock for a 7” square box with two sides 1/2” thick and the other two 3/4” thick. First lesson here is to make sure you know the orientation of each board when you’re laying out the joints. As you can see here, I failed:

Now lets take a look at the joints in all their humbling macro lens glory:

The first joint I over cut twice on the tail board. The tails and pins sit proud. There some gaps at the bottom of the the tails an pins as well. All in all this one came out better than I was expecting.

The second one I got carried away trying to fit the joint and ended up removing way to much material yielding a very loose joint.

The third try was much better. There are a few gaps around the joint and it does not quite sit square but miles better than the second one.

The fourth was where I got the front and back of the tail board confused and laid it out backwards. Opps. It’s the nicest fitting of all of the joints but has some gaps at the bottoms of the the tail. I’m still trying figure out how to set my marking gauge so that the line it cuts is perfect.

Things that are proving tough/need practice:

• I’m worried that I’m cutting do deep on the marking gauge. It does not seem like those lines will sand out very well. In fact I’m having trouble imagining a setting that will be both good at scoring the fibers along the cut and not marring the surface more that can be sanded out. I should play around with sanding at different depth settings.
  
• Cutting 90 degrees to the face for the tails and 90 degrees to the end for the pins is going to require a quite a bit more practice. One trick I learned on the fourth joint was to check to tails for square before transferring to the in board and clean up any error with a chisel.
  
• Getting the marking gauge set correctly so that there’s no gab at the bottom and the pins and tails do not sit proud.
  

More practice to come…

-Erik