Graham Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Background: I am rebuilding a built-in sideboard. My concern is that I will end up with a Mish-Mash of colors! The lower part will have new red oak cabinet doors and drawer fronts. The counter will also be red oak - I have edge glued, sanded and it is ready for coating. I planned on using Watco Danish oil but that is on hold. Above the counter, we have an existing shelving unit. The shelves and verticals are cedar. We sanded those down to bare wood. I applied 2 coats of Watco golden oak to two of the shelving pieces. This has darkened the cedar, but at this stage it is what it is, and we will likely have to finish coating the rest of the shelving unit that way. (The cedar soaks up the Danish oil fast! No way to reverse the process!) I made a cap (trim piece) that fits between the shelf unit and the ceiling. It is oak with light color. I applied one coat of Watco to it. However, it hardly changed color and is very light compared with the cedar below. I will have same problem when I come to finish the counter and door/drawer fronts. I need to darken the Watco finish so that it somewhat matches at least the lighter of the cedar boards. (One is very dark) Questions: - Which oil based stain would be suitable for darkening the Watco? - Should I sand down the oak cap that has had one coat of Watco and start again, or can I apply second coat with stain darkened Watco? - For counter top and doors, should I stain first and then apply Watco. Or should I use Watco with stain added? - With 2 coats Watco on two of the shelf uprights, I assume it is too late to go back to a stain plus varnish coating. - any advice on how to get colors that will work together welcomed! Comparison of cedar shelf and oak cap Overall View of cabinets and shelves. The interior shelves and the front face were stained with Saman Golden Wheat water based stain and them overcoated with Saman water based varnish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted February 18, 2022 Report Share Posted February 18, 2022 This is my opinion, based on a fairly narrow range of experience. Red oak is very good at taking stain in a relatively smooth manner, aside from the coarse pore structure. I would start with ALL the oak pieces in the same state, so either sand the already-oiled pice to bare wood, or oil the remaining oak to the same degree. Danish oil is pretty light on its 'varnish' component, so I think it will have a minimal impact on stain absorbtion. I would the find a stain color that matches the hue of the oild cedar as best you can. Darkness isn't important, but color tone is. Then obtain an equal amount of 'Natural' stain from the same product line. I use Minwax. Blend small amounts of color and natural together until your can apply to a scrap of oak and get a satisfactory match. Use an eyedropper or syringe to measure portions accurately, and record the recipe. When you find a happy mix, scale up the recipe and apply. The few times I have seen oil on cedar, the result was almost walnut colored, so maybe that area of the color charts is a good start. Good luck, and be sure to share your results with us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2022 Thanks for your input wtn highlander! I had only applied Watco to the two outer cedar uprights (missing in the picture above) as they were easily removable. I did a test on the unseen back of one by sanding down the Watco and coating with Saman water based stain. I was surprised that it worked! As you can see in the pic, shelving unit is in part built-in and would be awkward to work on with multiple coats of Danish oil with long drying times in a room that is adjacent to our kitchen! As a result, for the shelf unit, I have decided to use the Saman water based stain and overcoat with Saman water based matt varnish. On cedar, the color (golden wheat) comes out almost same as the Watco (golden oak) This will leave me with the challenge of finishing the red oak counter, doors and drawers. These can all be done in the workshop. I have experience with Watco, so favor it for the oak counter top. But only if I can blend it with a stain that will give at least a complimentary tone. I do have scraps as well as the underside of the countertop to experiment on. Any further input welcomed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 I am not familiar with Saman products, but this page indicates that blending colors is easy. It even lists a neutral base, although it isn't shown on the color samples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 Today I tried to sand the cedar pieces that had had two coats of Watco danish oil. The paper very quickly clogged up. The surface clearly had a lot of oil present! After about 3 days, it had likely not dried. Probably not a good idea to even think about applying a water based stain! My choices now seem to be to either stay with the Watco or to use an oil based stain and overcoat with something like satin Wipe-On poly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 I think I would leave the cedar alone, and concentrate on matching the oak to it. However, using a water-borne top coat over an oil, stain or otherwise, is risky. If you choose that path, let the oiled cedar cure for as long as you can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 On 2/18/2022 at 11:15 PM, wtnhighlander said: I think I would leave the cedar alone, and concentrate on matching the oak to it. However, using a water-borne top coat over an oil, stain or otherwise, is risky. If you choose that path, let the oiled cedar cure for as long as you can. I think you are right. The two cedar pieces that had had Watco applied just could not be sanded (paper clogged immediately). I decided that planing off a thin layer might make sense. No thickness planer, so I decided to hand plane the Watco coated surface. This went better than I might have expected! I then found that I could sand, I used 60 grit for a start and paper no longer clogged! So hopefully below the oil layer. I am currently testing stains/finishes. Minwax Golden Oak stain causes the cedar to turn very dark. However clear wipe-on poly retains the cedar color. So that or a brush on clear poly is likely what I will use on the cedar. Adding to problem, is that most of the cedar has it's usual golden natural tone, but one end piece and part of the other has a very dark tone. No way to get a uniform color with or without a stain. An option is to just retain the central section shown in the picture. Will require slots for shelves to be filled with matching cedar strips. Not sure I could get grain direction to match. For the Oak : One coat of Minwax Golden Oak stain on a red oak sample seemed a bit light. Second coat helped. It is not as red as usual oak tones. Sample has two coats of Minwax Golden Oak, no finish coat. Need to try something different, even although this usually works for red oak. My architect daughter suggested I paint the shelving unit in similar color to walls with semi-gloss enamel. I hate the idea of painting over wood! But if the clearcoat on unstained cedar doesn't look right, this could still be an option. By the way, seems quiet here - I keep posting as it's just a bit like thinking aloud :) Thanks for showing some interest! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 Changed topic title - No longer planning on using Watco on oak because of long drying time and need for darker color, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 Don't be afraid to paint where it is appropriate! Wood is beautiful, but natural is not always the best choice for the job. If you do decide to paint, I suggest using an enamel or mineral acrylic, not latex. My personal experience with latex has been unsatisfactory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 I have nothing to add over wtnhighlander on matching stain, he has much more experience there than I. But it does seem that getting oak and cedar to match is going to be very difficult. I don't think the outcome will look as natural as you envision. I think your daughter may be right and go with paint. Look into milk paint. One technique is to use two contrasting colors, one on top of the other, than sand back the top color letting the bottom color peak through. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronn W Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 You might try a gel stain ( LIke that mad by General Finishes) on the oak. Goes on a little thicker and there will not be so much contrast between the different grains in the oak. Gel stains can be mixed to get the right color. I can go to my local wood craft store and a guy there will help me mix some colors and get me on the right track for free so I don't have to bury cans of it just for testing that I might never use again. Remember that you don't know what the finished product will look like unit you get the final finish on it. I am working on a project for a friend that whants a whitewash stain finish on white Oak, (which still leaves some to the wood color showing thrugh). I got this idea that I would like the wood that was showing through to be blue. What was I thinking? Anyway, I am make sample boards to try to get what I want. Each step in the finishing process changes the appearance so I don't know what I have until i have a completely finihsed sample board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 I am starting to come around to possibly painting the shelving unit white/cream. It originally was quite complex and cluttered. If I paint, perhaps just retaining the centre section and hanging some pictures on each side might give a cleaner look? I hate to post the original pic, but here its . It gives an idea of the rest of the shelves. Do you think I should eliminate the side shelves? Just leaving these? As an alternative to paint, I have thought about using a gel stain to try and overcome the problem of some areas of the cedar becoming almost an ebony color when coated with stains or oils that are absorbed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 On 2/20/2022 at 12:19 PM, Ronn W said: You might try a gel stain ( LIke that mad by General Finishes) on the oak. Goes on a little thicker and there will not be so much contrast between the different grains in the oak. Gel stains can be mixed to get the right color. I can go to my local wood craft store and a guy there will help me mix some colors and get me on the right track for free so I don't have to bury cans of it just for testing that I might never use again. Remember that you don't know what the finished product will look like unit you get the final finish on it. The oak sample I posted a picture of earlier, was actually an offcut from the underside of the counter top. I added a second coat of the Minwax Golden Oak (oil based) plus a clear wipe-on finish and this is the result: The upper side grain is finer. Interesting seeing it is the same 1" plank! This is what it looks like with 1 coat of Saman Golden Wheat water based stain plus a thin wipe-on poly finish. (Saman don't have Golden Oak in their water based stain) Neither quite right, but maybe getting closer ;) I looked at Gel stains, but colors are limited. Saman has Golden Oak in an oil based gel stain, but not Minwax or Varathane at our local stores. I had been thinking of trying it on the cedar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 It looks like the top side of the oak counter has grain filler in it. That will do a lot to minimize the contrast of the open grain collecting excessive pigment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2022 On 2/20/2022 at 5:35 PM, wtnhighlander said: It looks like the top side of the oak counter has grain filler in it. That will do a lot to minimize the contrast of the open grain collecting excessive pigment. Both sides an offcut from the same bare red oak plank bought at Lowes. I sanded the top better after glue-up, but otherwise only difference is that it has the Saman water based golden wheat stain instead of the Minwax oil based golden oak. Could just be the difference in the way the oil vs water based stains are absorbed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2022 Red oak has those dark grain areas seen in upper picture above that are quite rough. They are not as pronounced on the finish side of our counter, so I have assumed that multiple finish coats of poly will even those out. Are there grain fillers that can be used with clear finishes, without distracting from the natural wood grain pattern? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted February 23, 2022 Report Share Posted February 23, 2022 Aquacoat and Crystalac both offer clear grain filler products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 12:20 PM, wtnhighlander said: Aquacoat and Crystalac both offer clear grain filler products. Thanks, I will check those out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted February 24, 2022 Report Share Posted February 24, 2022 Personally, I like the contrast between the two woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 My project was slowed down due to late delivery of the doors and drawer fronts. We chose to reduce size and paint the cedar shelving unit mentioned earlier. We now have the doors and drawers. I have so far just stained the drawer fronts, but have some concern about the color I have when using Golden Oak stain. The floors and adjacent door trims are a richer color that perhaps has some red in it. Whereas, the finished oak seems to have more grey or brown. My question: If, once I get everything stained and coated with poly, is it practical to lightly tint and add a coat or two of poly wipe it on. Something to just slightly change the hue to be closer to that of the surrounding wood. These pictures shows some of the surrounding wood. They also show the finished counter top. Th drawer front on he counter is stained, but has no finish. Wondering if it will end match counter after applying poly! ^^^^Counter vs floor and door trim ^^^^ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted March 27, 2022 Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 I think the poly will make that drawer front match quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 On 3/27/2022 at 12:49 PM, wtnhighlander said: I think the poly will make that drawer front match quite well. One coat on and I think that will be true. I probably made a mistake by choosing Golden Oak stain. The small pieces I tested it on, looks OK, but overall in the room, we have reddish/brown hues in the floors, door frames and one door on far side of the small room. Oak doesn't exactly blend in. We have also stripped a louvred bifold door(on same side as the cabinet) back to bare wood. Not sure what wood it is. Quite soft with some light, some darker color. Very absorbent. Maybe Philippine mahogany? Anyway, I will need to stain and finish that too, in a way that blends with the counter & cabinets. Still wondering if I can or should eventually add a tinted polyurethane finish coat to counter & cabinets to "adjust" the oak color a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 The drawer fronts now have two coats and there is still that difference in color. The oak was quite similar to the counter top. When finishing the counter, I started with 50/50 poly and mineral spirits, then 75/25. For later thin coats to remove imperfections, I went back to 50/50. Do you think that thinning with mineral spirits could change the color? Counter seems to have some yellow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 How long has the counter been complete? Poly does seem to amber a bit as it fully cures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 I think it's been about 5 weeks or so since I coated the counter. I have read that the oil based poly changes color in time. But in 5 weeks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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