Cleaning up a swollen joint prematurely. Fact or Myth?

[JayWC]

Fellow WWers,

I read an article in a WWing magazine recently regarding cleaning up a flat panel prior to the moisture content equalizing after a glue-up.

I discussed this in the live chat and was pushed back as a near heretic...so...to me it's time to discuss this from a factual viewpoint with input from other WWers rather than only anecdotal evidence. Honestly, I'm hoping the facts present small effects because I myself have pushed the same day glue-up and clean-up limits.

Per http://www.titebond.com/ApplicatorTipTB.asp:

"Water based wood glues such as Titebond Original or Titebond II build strength in a joint as they lose moisture into the surrounding wood. This moisture causes the wood on both sides of the bondline to swell slightly. If the project is planed or sanded before this swelling disappears, the high moisture wood near the joint will continue to dry and will shrink slightly compared to the rest of the wood. Allow your project to dry for several days before sanding or planing."

What I'm hoping to get is feedback from forum members, Marc (or other industry experts), and Titebond exactly how much shrinkage there might be and if this affects the feel or aesthetic of the final piece. Since we work with a hygroscopic material, I also realize variables such as initial moisture content of the stock as well as humidity of the environment are among many factors so my request would be the following:

Please provide feedback based on an actual measurement from a previously completed project in the format of thousandths of an inch when measured from a straight edge placed across the surface along with commentary of how long the piece was allowed to sit after glue up before clean up. Hopefully the data will come in from a variety of wood species and thicknesses of the panel and that will be noted as well. Please feel free to add other "observed" data to your post.

What I'm driving at is taking Titebond's commentary and that of the mag I read and translating that into hard data. It might be significant and it might be moot considering our medium and how it 'lives' in our daily environment. Thanks in advance for your input!

Jay

PS. Mods, please feel free to move this if I posted in the wrong section.

[Darnell Hagen]

Collapsed glue joints are a heartbreaking reality. I've never broken out the dial indicator to measure the surface, as that seems like poor etiquette/ rubbing salt in the wounds. The difference can't be felt, but after finish is applied the joints are blatantly evident in raking and refected light. Biscuits will do the same, resulting in a row of football shaped depressions along the glue line. I push boundaries all the time, but I won't level a joint the same day, I let at least 16 hours dry time.

[Vic]

Jay, I'm not really sure, because I usually glue up at the end of a session and clean up the next day. So, who knows. I've never experienced it.

Btw. Were you referring to the Live Chat Woodwhisperer site? THEY treated you poorly? I'm sorry if that was the case, as the guys that are usually there may poke fun, but are usually quite a great bunch.

[thewoodwhisperer]

I can't give you numbers or real "hard data", but I can tell you I've experienced this before. Its not really a dramatic thing, but when you are talking about a table top glueup, as an example, those little glue grooves can really be an eyesore and you can definitely feel it.

[ChetlovesMer]

Collapsed glue joints are a heartbreaking reality. I've never broken out the dial indicator to measure the surface, as that seems like poor etiquette/ rubbing salt in the wounds. The difference can't be felt, but after finish is applied the joints are blatantly evident in raking and refected light. Biscuits will do the same, resulting in a row of football shaped depressions along the glue line. I push boundaries all the time, but I won't level a joint the same day, I let at least 16 hours dry time.

I've never had it happen to me, but I've seen it happen with Biscuits. I work some darn slow these days that by time I glue up its usually time to go in anyway.

[JayWC]

Collapsed glue joints are a heartbreaking reality. I've never broken out the dial indicator to measure the surface, as that seems like poor etiquette/ rubbing salt in the wounds. The difference can't be felt, but after finish is applied the joints are blatantly evident in raking and refected light. Biscuits will do the same, resulting in a row of football shaped depressions along the glue line. I push boundaries all the time, but I won't level a joint the same day, I let at least 16 hours dry time.

Don't get me wrong Darnell, it's a great bunch of guys and I wasn't treated poorly. It was simply that bringing up the topic caused less than an enthusiastic response.

[Darnell Hagen]

I believe you're responding to Vic, there Jay, that kind of behaviour from the Live Chat wouldn't surprise me. That Vanderlist is a bit of a bully.

[JayWC]

I believe you're responding to Vic, there Jay, that kind of behaviour from the Live Chat wouldn't surprise me. That Vanderlist is a bit of a bully.

You're right! I meant Vic!

[AceHoleInOne]

Yup happened to me with biscuits.

Also I may add, if you have ever tried to remove dents or dings using the water or steam trick. And the wood is still proud and you sand flat. As the wood dries...guess what, you now have a dent! Don't get to technical about it, after all, its wood and it moves!

-Ace-

[Darnell Hagen]

I've used that to my advantage, I made a kids growth chart out of maple years ago. I stamped the numerals with steel punches, sanded to the bottom of the depression, then used steam to bring the numbers proud of the surface. It's a neat effect.

[kaybee]

I've seen it happen with biscuits. 'Was' a beautiful table too.