Doubts about the angle of attack

[Sergio Escudero]

I have recently had some doubts about this issue, mainly related to tear out. I just saw Reed's wedges for Stanley Bailey planes and how James eliminated tearing even when planing against the grain by increasing the angle of attack by 10º. I clearly understand that this works. I also know of people who use a back bevel on their irons to increase the angle of attack, but when introducing the back bevel, doesn't this force the chipbreaker to retract, reducing its effectiveness? Is it still a better idea to use a back bevel and place the chipbreaker 1 mm from the edge VS no back bevel and chipbreaker at 0.5 mm (yes, European here)?

I have both Bailey and Bedrock planes (Record and Juuma), so I was thinking of reserving a 4 and a 4 1/2 from Record for medium-fine work and a 4 and 4 1/2 from Juuma for flawless finishes, so apart from having a perfect chip breaker adjustment and an ultra-closed mouth (0.5mm), I wanted to set them at a higher angle, which makes me wonder if machining a 10º wedge is a better idea in terms of performance than a back bevel with the disadvantage of retracting its position.

I want to understand this thoroughly, so please don't hesitate to give long or technical explanations, I enjoy them.

[gee-dub]

I have a couple of Millers Falls No 9's (Stanley No 4 size).  I have a 50 degree iron in one that  use for difficult or reversing grain areas.  It is harder to push so it only comes into play when I have to have that almost scraper-like action..

[wtnhighlander]

The higher angle of attack, relative to the work surface (or sole of the plane), does reduce the levering action that produces tear-out, but also requires more force to cut the material. Low-angle planes use cutters of differing bevel angle to achieve the result you are looking for. If you have not yet purchased a plane to modify with a wedge, I'd suggest the low-angle design, instead. Fewer parts to adjust.

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

Sharpening and blade geometry is a subject that's riddled with opinion and preference. 

The absolute best thing i can advise is to let your own experience be your guide; because the Internet is absolutely saturated with conflicting opinions from reputable woodworkers. Rob Cosman preaches using multiple micro bevels. Paul Sellers doesn't use any. 

So who is right? There is no answer to that question. There's only what's right FOR YOU. 

Here's my opinion on some of your questions/concerns: 

 

1. Will a back bevel affect the chipbreaker's function? 

No. I understand the thinking behind that concern, as a BB is changing the angle of attack, but I've never found this to be significant enough to have an adverse effect on the CB. 

2. Is it better to use a back bevel or not? 

Again, there's no right answer here. I personally don't use one, though i have in the past. It's another bevel to maintain and adds to the sharpening process. When I'm in a project, i want to be able to hit my sharpening station, touch up my edge and be back to work in around 2-3 minutes. A BB is one more thing to maintain. And if you want to remove a back bevel, you have to grind it out and shorten your blade by the width of that bb. No thanks.

But some guys swear by them. 

3. For highly figured woods, many turn to a card scraper instead of a plane. It's almost impossible to get tearout from a scraper. 

There are other guys in here who are advanced users and  may be able to shed more light - @derekcohen for one. 

 

 

 

[gee-dub]

Card scraper guy here as well. 

What works for you, works for you.  Others can provide valuable guidance about what works for them but, in the end, hand tool usage is very tactile and personal.  We all have different heights, strengths, work surfaces . . . 

[Sergio Escudero]

On 10/25/2025 at 5:49 PM, gee-dub said:

Card scraper guy here as well. 

What works for you, works for you.  Others can provide valuable guidance about what works for them but, in the end, hand tool usage is very tactile and personal.  We all have different heights, strengths, work surfaces . . . 

Yes, I have a card scraper (although I need to learn how to use it properly), but I prefer a plane; I enjoy using them and they ensure a completely flat finish, plus I can remove material "quickly", which I can't do with the card scraper. I would like to buy a scraper plane in the future when I can afford it.

[Sergio Escudero]

On 10/25/2025 at 5:36 PM, Ron Swanson Jr. said:

And if you want to remove a back bevel, you have to grind it out and shorten your blade by the width of that bb.

I'm not worried about that. If I decide to go for a back bevel, I'll use a dedicated plane and iron, so I'm not going to remove it; I'd rather buy another iron and swap it out.

I'm thinking of buying a piece of brass or copper to make a wedge similar to Reed's for my Juumas; it should be easy and requires hardly any tools to achieve precision work. I just have to see if a friend of my uncle's can turn a couple of longer pins for me to compensate for the extra height of the wedge. If I go down this way, I will try to document the process. Until four hours ago, I didn't know these parts existed or that this was possible, and I'm sure many others didn't either; I always thought that the only way was to use a higher angle frog.

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

On 10/25/2025 at 11:35 AM, Sergio Escudero said:

I didn't know these parts existed or that this was possible, and I'm sure many others didn't either; I always thought that the only way was to use a higher angle frog.

Most people just grind to a higher angle. My feeling is that wedges you are describing are a gimmick, but by all means check them out and experiment. 

At the end of the day, it's just a different path to arriving at the same place. 

[Sergio Escudero]

On 10/25/2025 at 6:59 PM, Ron Swanson Jr. said:

Most people just grind to a higher angle. My feeling is that wedges you are describing are a gimmick, but by all means check them out and experiment. 

At the end of the day, it's just a different path to arriving at the same place. 

Perhaps what I was asking was too much, as I am trying to understand the difference between a back bevel VS a high-angle frog in an objective and measurable way. The angle of attack is the same for practical purposes, but the geometry of the tip of the iron and the position of the chipbreaker are different. I suppose that for practical purposes, if there is a difference, it will be very small. I just wish there was a scientific publication on the subject where laboratory tests had been carried out. Ultimately, such an approach would put an end to the existing discussions on certain topics in carpentry, as there would be objective data.

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

I hear you. 

But hand planes have been in use for 2000+ years. The Bailey pattern for nearly 200. There is no definitive answer. There's only preferences and what works for you. Which is why experience is the best teacher. 

Intellectual/theoretical knowledge is great, but it pales in comparison to hard won experience. Again, just my opinion. 

 

Best of luck to you. 

[Tom King]

Before you go to the trouble of changing an iron angle, study up on using a close set chipbreaker.   More than a few have traveled this same path.

[wtnhighlander]

In all honesty, after watching the video you posted, I would just do a back-bevel, if a properly tuned chip breaker isn't doing what you need. Those add-in wedges seem like something that would move out of adjustment easily.

[Sergio Escudero]

On 10/25/2025 at 7:58 PM, Tom King said:

Before you go to the trouble of changing an iron angle, study up on using a close set chipbreaker.   More than a few have traveled this same path.

I recently cleaned and finely adjusted some of my planes below the 5 1/2. I was careful to set the chipbreaker very very close to the edge, about 1 mm from it, even less on my 4 1/2. The mouth has the same separation, but I'll reduce it even more, I want less than 0.5mm. I don't work with really difficult woods, mainly beech and oak, but I try to prepare myself for the future; I also have a piece of ipe that I don't know how it will behave.

I was just watching a video of Bob Cosman where he uses a 20-degree back bevel.

[Sergio Escudero]

On 10/25/2025 at 8:33 PM, wtnhighlander said:

In all honesty, after watching the video you posted, I would just do a back-bevel, if a properly tuned chip breaker isn't doing what you need. Those add-in wedges seem like something that would move out of adjustment easily.

Yes, I'll definitely try that too. The cost of a new Juuma iron is only €20 plus shipping, which, hopefully, is only slightly more expensive than getting the piece of brass to make the wedge. I'm waiting to buy a No. 4 from Fine Tools so I can take advantage of the order and buy another iron.

[TomTrees]

Hello, typing on a phone so bear with me, but just to get the upset outta the way to start with,

That being, the fact Warren Mickley has actually been using the cap iron for what it was designed to do, for decades that is, and yet basically no one else, bar perhaps one or two folks, have experience of this, i.e before 2012.

(David Weaver being goaded to decipher from Warren's posts how to achieve this, and popularised this thereafter said date.)

Three rules must be adhered to (in unison) to utilise the cap iron, and the proof is the straight shavings...of which you won't see any gurus demonstrate, for reasons I need not mention, 

Anyway, the 3 rules as said, is a recipe which if not followed correctly, will lead to failure.

1 No tight mouths.

2 Steeply honed cap iron, the bare minimum being 50 degrees.

3 No rounded corners of the plane iron, the camber must be very fine, especially if one hones the cap at fifty!

One can hone the cap iron steeper in order to attain more camber if they wish.

I cannot go into detail on a phone, but search some of Derek Cohen's posts in order to see/take note of the straight shavings...only possible when the rules have been followed.

Most long time ww folk are too proud or stubborn to admit they still haven't got that down, and will not be schooled on the subject, full stop.

Use of the cap iron is a two plane process, i.e a panel plane, and a smoother, the latter being set twice as close to the edge as the former.

Anything less is drudgery.

Possibly wasting my time writing this, as 99 percent of folk who start these type of topics, are simply looking for justification to buy something new and shiny...

which in turn, will very much likely make them all too cautious to actually hone their cap iron to a sufficient angle!

By all means buy what you want, but buy a cheap bailey as well, so you'll actually get those straight shavings.

Cheerio.

All the best

Tom

 

 

[Tpt life]

Graham of the UK joinery, got me setting the cap tight to the cutting edge, and the results are nothing short of exceptional. I get great results, smoothing gnarly interlocked grain. This has a few assumptions:

1) SHARP

2) I disagree with the above. Ease the corners of your plane blade. Digging corners result in track marks that take more effort to remove than it is worth. NOT camber….eased corners.

3) Practice. Practice. Practice. Nothing beats experience for diagnosing issues. Don’t expect to plane gnarly, until you understand what planing is. I cut my teeth on fire wood, and used the shavings for starter kindling.