Wooden Gutters...

[VitalBodies]

Pondering the idea of making wooden gutters for a hexagonal chalet roof. The roof is pitched about 6" for every 12" and thus the gutters will also be pitched on four of the 6 sides with the other two sides being virtually level other than enough slope to drain.

Normally the classic wooden gutters of old were made out of a solid piece of wood and that is one option.

The other option is to build them using joints of some kind like T & G.

In our case we do not have to match some pattern of old but can make them modern looking.

Making the gutters out of wood, would virtually hide the gutters and make them look like trim which might be nice.

But how to make them?

One could use something like 1 by cedar (or other wood) and joints or carve out a 4x4 or 6x6.

Anyone ever done this or have any thoughts on the matter?

[Onboard]

Here’s a link VB that may get you started. It’s a 16 page pdf. At least scan through and look at all the pictures and captions. It also has some useful diagrams. Looks like it was published in 1993.

You might find this of interest. No construction details.

More info. Scroll down to “INSTALL NEW WOOD GUTTERS AND LEADERS” section.

Some FAQ’s.

Reading optional. I just thought the pictures of the two tools at the end of the article were interesting.

I’ll stop here. For more information I Google’d “making wooden gutters”.

[VitalBodies]

Thank you for the information! The last link was interesting in that they were pondering that unpainted might be the best for wooden gutters after all.

And we definitely do not want lead down spouts ; ).

We are trying to match the cedar fascia and would rather the gutters be cedar (raw or stained) instead of painted.

I wonder what kind of joints would be best? I sketched a few that I could think of but there are likely others.

Edited August 22, 2011 by VitalBodies

[TimV]

I like the look of the 2nd from the right. That angle will provide a nice visual from ground level, I think. Don't know how you will transition to a downspout, however. Maybe if you just made a box at the end that it goes into then down. Similar to what I've seen on old copper guttering.

[Rapid Roger]

I like the second from the left better. Like Tim pointed out, it would be easier to transition to the down spout. And with the face of the outer board it would look nicer from the street too. I think if the tongue and grove is tight and you use Titebond III for glue it will hold water and not leak. Of course the water will cause the wood to swell and seal also.

Rog

[VitalBodies]

I like the look of the 2nd from the right. That angle will provide a nice visual from ground level, I think. Don't know how you will transition to a downspout, however. Maybe if you just made a box at the end that it goes into then down. Similar to what I've seen on old copper guttering.

My dad liked the second from the right also and I too began to wonder about down spouts with that version. In some cases there will be down spouts and in other cases this gutter will angle down (with the slope of the roof) to a flat roof where the water will need to have its speed and direction changed to not harm the flat roof. I also began to think about which is easiest to install. Some of the gutter will be seen from the ground (high above) and parts of others will be seen from just above face level from a deck. In some instances we might be able to have the water flow through a hole in the gutter and down a chain rather than down spout. Although the water will be traveling fairly fast because of the slope. Not that any of these are show stoppers but perhaps head scratchers...

Another interesting idea is to continue the V down as a down spout yet have it not quite plumb. How not quite plumb it would have to be to not free fall the water is the question.

One could have little obstacles (triangles that create ridges) that slow the water down. Would be fun if the gutter/downspout created some kind of fountain/waterfall sounds.

Edited August 22, 2011 by VitalBodies

[VitalBodies]

I like the second from the left better. Like Tim pointed out, it would be easier to transition to the down spout. And with the face of the outer board it would look nicer from the street too. I think if the tongue and grove is tight and you use Titebond III for glue it will hold water and not leak. Of course the water will cause the wood to swell and seal also.

Rog

My dad began to wonder if the T&G would be strong enough thus the idea of using a dado. Neither one of was sure if the T&G was not strong enough either though as we have never done this. I had also thought of a square down spout that is hinged to open lengthwise for cleaning might be interesting. With V shaped version Tim liked he too suggested a box.

[bois]

I don't think strength will be an issue with any of these designs. The dado or T&G are really only needed for alignment and ease of glue-up, not strength. This will be a fairly substantial long-grain glue joint that should be very solid without mechanical joinery. I'd just use thick enough stock that you don't risk snapping it when you lean a ladder up against it. The only thing is I haven't ever worked with cedar, so I don't know if there are any issues with glue bonds I may be missing. That one down side I see to using square joints rather than coved out solid gutters is cleaning them. It would be potentially harder to clean the corners out on these gutters, while coves are easy to clear out. But beyond that, I'm eager to see what you finally choose and build.

[VitalBodies]

I don't think strength will be an issue with any of these designs. The dado or T&G are really only needed for alignment and ease of glue-up, not strength. This will be a fairly substantial long-grain glue joint that should be very solid without mechanical joinery. I'd just use thick enough stock that you don't risk snapping it when you lean a ladder up against it. The only thing is I haven't ever worked with cedar, so I don't know if there are any issues with glue bonds I may be missing. That one down side I see to using square joints rather than coved out solid gutters is cleaning them. It would be potentially harder to clean the corners out on these gutters, while coves are easy to clear out. But beyond that, I'm eager to see what you finally choose and build.

Leaning a ladder against them, that is another fine point to bring up. What would do if it was up to you? It is fun and helpful to get insights as everyone sees it a bit differently which helps.

[Don Z.]

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=45160&cat=1,46168,46174

Lee Valley sells some great router bits that can help you with this...

[VitalBodies]

http://www.leevalley...t=1,46168,46174

Lee Valley sells some great router bits that can help you with this...

Interesting bits. I wonder if they would make a joint that would stand up to the "snapping it when you lean a ladder up against it" test? That would allow for a coved type gutter.

There are different factors here that you all know. Cost: A 4x4 here, out of tight knot cedar is about $3.50 a linear foot. As you know, that is only 3.5"x3.5" Cedar boards are for example are $3 for a 96x2.5x.5/8. Wider, longer, thicker or clear adds to the price. Ultimately I would like to do what works well rather than just cheap but I do not need to get exotic either. Some runs might be 25 feet or so, so joining the sections is a factor. I have perhaps 180 feet of gutter to do. Technically only about 90 needs to be wood but if we think up how to do this at a reasonable cost maybe all the gutters could be wood.

Factors:

• Cost
  
• The Leaning Ladder Test
  
• Cleaning
  
• Adding Angles/corners, End Caps or Down Spouts
  
• Hanging
  
• Stain or finish.
  

[VitalBodies]

I don't think strength will be an issue with any of these designs. The dado or T&G are really only needed for alignment and ease of glue-up, not strength. This will be a fairly substantial long-grain glue joint that should be very solid without mechanical joinery. I'd just use thick enough stock that you don't risk snapping it when you lean a ladder up against it. The only thing is I haven't ever worked with cedar, so I don't know if there are any issues with glue bonds I may be missing. That one down side I see to using square joints rather than coved out solid gutters is cleaning them. It would be potentially harder to clean the corners out on these gutters, while coves are easy to clear out. But beyond that, I'm eager to see what you finally choose and build.

So are suggesting that a joint, per say, might not be needed at all? That simple fasteners and glue is enough? Also, why do you question cedar and glue, the soft wood, tannins or something else?

Cleaning: Any one besides me have a gutter cleaning robot? They like the K style gutter mostly. Not sure how it would perform on a slope. I had not consider the robot until now.

[Beechwood Chip]

If I were planning to lean a ladder against a wooden gutter, I'd put 1x1 cross pieces across the top of the gutter. If the gutter was made out of 3/4" thick stock, I think I'd space them every 24", closer for thinner stock. This is just an impression off the top of my head - I haven't done any calculations or anything.

[VitalBodies]

If I were planning to lean a ladder against a wooden gutter, I'd put 1x1 cross pieces across the top of the gutter. If the gutter was made out of 3/4" thick stock, I think I'd space them every 24", closer for thinner stock. This is just an impression off the top of my head - I haven't done any calculations or anything.

All ideas, suggestions and such are appreciated! I had thought of that too but not how close they might be needed to be placed. Not decided on the final form the gutter will take yet, open to all ideas and suggestions. This week the house gets painted so there is time to ponder. Also, your suggestion brings to mind the idea that the leading edge needs a angle to help suppress or hide any ladder marks.

Edited August 26, 2011 by VitalBodies

[VitalBodies]

I numbered the versions for reference.

In using a solid like a 4x4 that is carved out, I at first thought to dismiss the idea as I assumed that the wood would have to be clear (no knots) to work. Rethinking all options I realized I made an assumption (it is dangerous at best to make assumptions). I am not sold on the idea of solid or against a solid, but would like to know if it is still on the table as a choice. Do you think it would have to be clear wood? Clear gets price-ee and is likely to eclipse the budget. Some reference material that was suggested (thanks onboard) indicated that cedar, redwood and fir or even certain kinds of pine could be used for gutters. Cedar is my top choice for matching but sometimes the serendipity of how things unfold can make a better choice than ones normal thought patterns so I am open here also.

[dwacker]

Take a look at the profiles at Blue Ox Millworks. They are pretty easy to duplicate if you do them in two pieces then glue and dowel them back together. Make the outside profile first 1/8 wider than desired. Then hog the center with a dado blade. Then rip and profile the inside. A handfull of shaper cutters will be need to get the fancy profiles. I did some for an old house and used 10' sections of cedar untreated power poles I get free from Mcfarland Cascade. To join the sections if you need to make short sections use a scarf joint.

I also did some that were real simple on the lathe. Then cut the top flat and hog out with a dado. Then cut the back flat. The drawback was they were 4ft sections so all had to be scarf jointed, but in this case it was just a little shed, I dont know where your located, but check to see if there is a pole yard in your area. Most just give away the shorts.

Don

[Onboard]

My only concern about the solid wood is the direction of the “end” grain. Specifically the direction of the grain at the front where a ladder may be placed. Depending on grain direction, the pressure of the ladder rails could possibly snap the top front edge off. I know there are other factors that could work against this happening, but just a thought. Maybe quarter sawn wood might be nice if the end grain is oriented vertically, but that would make the bottom of the gutter the weak point which may or may not be an issue. Possible riff sawn as a compromise. Or, how about a 4x4 with the pith dead center, since it will be hogged out anyway. I’m also curious about wood movement, but I guess that would be a factor in all of the designs. This may point to your designs 2-7 where the week point is mostly based on the strength of the joinery. Maybe I’m just over thinking this thing and there are really no issues at all, or maybe my assumptions (concerns) are all wrong.

Here’s the link to the company that Don referred to. I see that the end grain on the top left photograph is running at a 45 deg angle, which is a good compromise. I also noted that they use 6x6 stock for their gutters. I would think that the greater mass (compared to a 4x4) would also help in resisting breaking from a leaning ladder.

[dwacker]

My only concern about the solid wood is the direction of the “end” grain. Specifically the direction of the grain at the front where a ladder may be placed. Depending on grain direction, the pressure of the ladder rails could possibly snap the top front edge off. I know there are other factors that could work against this happening, but just a thought. Maybe quarter sawn wood might be nice if the end grain is oriented vertically, but that would make the bottom of the gutter the weak point which may or may not be an issue. Possible riff sawn as a compromise. Or, how about a 4x4 with the pith dead center, since it will be hogged out anyway. I’m also curious about wood movement, but I guess that would be a factor in all of the designs. This may point to your designs 2-7 where the week point is mostly based on the strength of the joinery. Maybe I’m just over thinking this thing and there are really no issues at all, or maybe my assumptions (concerns) are all wrong.

Here’s the link to the company that Don referred to. I see that the end grain on the top left photograph is running at a 45 deg angle, which is a good compromise. I also noted that they use 6x6 stock for their gutters. I would think that the greater mass (compared to a 4x4) would also help in resisting breaking from a leaning ladder.

Your right in being concerned but they are alot stronger than one would think. I use wooden dowels for restoration jobs, drill from the back (house side) of the gutter to about half way through the front side. Glue them in and no ladder is going to snap the face.

Don

[Onboard]

Your right in being concerned but they are alot stronger than one would think. I use wooden dowels for restoration jobs, drill from the back (house side) of the gutter to about half way through the front side. Glue them in and no ladder is going to snap the face.

Don

I agree Don. Beechwood Chip also suggested something similar. I just didn’t see that idea being picked up by VB. So hopefully VB will add that feature to his chosen gutter design.

[Beechwood Chip]

I agree Don. Beechwood Chip also suggested something similar. I just didn’t see that idea being picked up by VB. So hopefully VB will add that feature to his chosen gutter design.

Drilling and dowels are a much better solution than mine (1x1 stock). I guess I was looking at some of the possible designs and was fixated on 1x stock.

[Onboard]

Actually Beechwood, it think the repetitive look of the square ends might look cool! Maybe even cut the ends at a 45 deg. But that may look no different than a squared end. I guess dowels or 1x1’s would be VB’s call.

[VitalBodies]

VitalBodies had to perform civic duty (Jury Duty) so I have been out of touch for some time.

I appreciate and honor all ideas and concepts.

I get the sense, however, I missed something.

Originally I brought up the ideas of one hollowed out unit of wood or using dimensional lumber with perhaps some kind of jointery.

Spell check does not like "Jointery" with T but I hope that is the correct spelling.

I have endeavored to keep the thread open and not really close off any ideas and even kept the sketches some what crude/simple/basic rather than exacting to keep the designs open as well.

I might narrow that down (for me) at some point but hope others gain from the tread as time goes on.

I might need a simple sketch of any ideas or joints that I might not be fully grasping but they are not being discarded, at least intentionally.

Figures 6 and 7 were drawn to honor nails, screws or dowels and also the classic K style gutter, at least as a gutter cleaning robot might see it.

The term "hog" is also new to me, not sure I know what that means. I could guess but I would be guessing.

6x6 also should stay on the table although I have no idea where to acquire that afford-ably for this project.

So what I am not responding to fully? Might be that I did not full grasp it visually. If I do, I will draw it and add it to the list.

[VitalBodies]

Number 9 is aimed at the idea that the ladder is king. Although, with this as the main relativity an interesting gutter was designed in a number of ways. You might have to use a bit of imagination to know what the ladder is in that drawing.

[Beechwood Chip]

Originally I brought up the ideas of one hollowed out unit of wood or using dimensional lumber with perhaps some kind of jointery.

Spell check does not like "Jointery" with T but I hope that is the correct spelling.

It's joinery. Jointing is when you smooth an edge (to make a tight glue joint, for example).

The term "hog" is also new to me, not sure I know what that means.

When you convert a lot of material to chips or sawdust, especially from the inside of a piece, you are "hogging out" the material. So, for example, if you glue three boards together to make a gutter, you don't destroy a lot of material, but if you take a 4x4 and dig out a hollow with a router or chisels, then you are hogging out the gutter. With this meaning, I never hear "hog" alone, it's always "hog out".

[VitalBodies]

Thanks Beechwood Chip, that helps!