rbbauer00 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I am just getting started with my woodworking hobby and am ready to buy my first table saw. I'm looking for advice on which brands to look at or stay away from. My budget is flexible, but i'd like to keep it under $1500 for the saw. I have extra cash for blades and other accessories so this is just about the saw. The saw will go in a 2-car garage shop (with one car in it) and not get moved around probably at all. I don't have a 220v outlet but I can add one. I am still a beginner, but I don't want to buy something cheap just to replace it in a few years. I want something to last. I'll mostly be doing small cabinet and furniture projects like tables, chairs, etc. and maybe small things like boxes. I've been using my neighbor's RIGID saw until now. I don't know the model number, but it is a stationary cabinet saw with a granite top. It's ok, but I want something more accurate. I have a woodcraft store in town that carries jet, powermatic, and delta. The PM and delta are way out of my price range. I've also looked at grizzly, which is very inexpensive, but seems to have the same specs as some of the more expensive saws. It seems I can get a 220v cabinet grizzly for the price of a portable jet or a used PM/Delta. I'd love to have feedback from people with experience with these brands. Are grizzly and jet good saws or should I buy a cheap rigid and save up for the delta, PM, or sawstop? I've also seen ads for General International. Their cabinet saw is $1200. Also, I'm right-handed. Does left vs right tilting blade matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I was in a very similar situation a while back. I gave myself a $1500 budget to buy a table saw.I checked out the SawStop Contractor model, but it was $1700. So, I bought a Bosch 4100, which I really liked. It was $380 refurb, had a really nice blade guard / riving knife system, and was accurate enough for my needs. The table was a little small, but I could use a circular saw with a guide for sheet goods. I was very happy with it. Then I put my finger into the saw blade. All of a sudden, not getting a SawStop because it was $200 over my arbitrary limit seemed like a bad decision. Luckily, it was a minor injury. Besides the safety feature that everyone talks about, the SawStop is a well made, accurate saw. I'm not saying that you need to get one, and I'm not trying to scare you with horror stories, but I think you should consider it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatworks Today Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Only advice I can give is to get the best saw your budget will allow. Whether you're using it for a hobby or something a little more serious, it's cheaper in the long run to bite the bullet once rather than invest in something and look at upgrading down the road. Some features I considered important: a dust collection port (for my health and the fact that cleaning/sweeping isn't very fun)220v for the power (grunt-grunt )left tilt: just a better design for cutting bevels. Never could understand why anyone would want the blade to tilt towards the fence (has a tendency to pinch and kick back)and LOTS of weight!! typically means more cast iron which doesn't flex and the weight eliminates any vibration on the table I gimped along with a delta contractor saw for many years ($500+/-) and finally upgraded to a PM cabinet; wish I would have bought this saw from the very beginning! Would have saved a lot of frustration Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I appreciate the advice so far. As for the sawstop, their cabinet saw is $2900. My wife would cut my fingers off if I spent that much. I do find the contractor saw appealing. But I'd be losing the beefier motor and easier dust collection that I'd get with the cabinet. I'll say I'd rather have an awesome contractor saw than a crappy cabinet. As far as the quality of the saw, is the grizzly cabinet as good as the more expensive ones, or will I be better off with a high-end contractor saw and upgrade later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Ever thought of buying used? If you're patient, you have a real good chance of scoring a deal on craigslist. http://knoxville.cra...minAsk=&maxAsk= http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/2764319489.html -- Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Another idea is to go find friends/relatives/associates who have different models and go to their house and try them out. The more different models you try the more likely you are to find what's right for you. I'm on my 3rd and probably last table saw. Between me and my other woodworking friends, demo days, and one class I took, I think that by now, I've tried nearly every brand out there. (Or at least all the major ones sold in the US.) I consider this data invaluable. You may be able to get the right saw without trying everything, but its much easier to do so once you have. The other piece of advice I'd give you is if you are seriously planning on doing this hobby for a long time, all the time you spend on this decision will not be wasted. My saw is a pleasure to use and although I spent a lot on it when you take it all into account I still feel like it was a bargin when you consider how much of a joy it is to run and accurate it is to set up. I never have any of those "God, if only....." moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linkmx674 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 i have a jet 10" proshop with cast wings and i love it. if you have good blades for it, it will work great! it would be awsome to have a 3 or 5 hp table saw , but for what i do this jet works great! i bought at woodcraft for $800 a couple of years ago. remember you will want a good jointer and planner also in the future. on that i recomend grizzly 6'' jointer . have fun with your purchase- and you might be able to get 2 tools with your budget! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I don't think it matters whether your a beginner or pro. Your budget will pretty much dictate your saw purchase. The Griz are fine saws they they come out of the same factory as PM, Jet, Sawstop and others and have some identical features. Most of today's saws use a very similar fence, years ago the fence system is really what separated the brands but not today. If you can afford a cabinet saw even a Griz IMO your better off than buying any contractors saw. Any 3hp cabinet saw is going to last you a lifetime of hobby work. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB1 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Honestly, knowing what I know now, I would probably get a tracksaw and save up for the SawStop hybrid cabinet saw and a good blade. Power wise I've never come across anything my Ridgid 1.5hp contractor saw flat out can't handle (I'm not cutting 8/4 hickory or anything like that.) Sometimes I have to slow the feed rate using a full kerf blade in 6/4 cherry or something but that's rare too... I doubt most hobbiests like me would realistically need a 5HP cabinet saw. Seems like it'd be more for bragging rights then anything. -Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texfire Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I bought the Bosch 4100, but if I could do it over again, I'd have saved my pennies and gotten something else. It's a great saw for what it is, a benchtop model, and if that's the limit of your budget, I'd suggest that you look at it. But a benchtop has a series of compromises built into it that I'd look long and hard at. The lack of weight and non-ferrous table are very limiting. It's great for dadoes and thin rips. It's not big enough for sheet goods. At that point, $700 was the limit of my budget and the only models Sawstop had were the top of the line ones. My next table saw will probably be a Sawstop. They make a cabinet saw with a 3hp 110/220v motor that runs around $2300 but gets you into the cabinet mass and fence systems. The safety feature is worth it for me, but you need to make your own choice on what level of risk is acceptable to you. With that in mind, I would have skipped the TS and gotten a TS55 and MFT for sheetgoods and rips, and used a router for dadoes until I could afford the Sawstop. Sometimes I consider just doing that and not getting a TS at all, but there's some things a TS does better, repetitive cuts being one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotscott Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 If I were in your shoes, I'd go one of a couple of different routes. The best saw you can buy for under $1500 is a 3hp cabinet saw....new ones like the G1023RL from Grizzly are < $1300 shipped. All the saw you'll ever need, and are a great value, but do require 220v...a move I doubt you'll ever regret if it's feasible to do. Gobs of power, unflinching, robust, solid as a rock, a pleasure to use, easy to align, and will give good service for decades. The 2nd option is easier and cheaper, but you don't get as much saw. Grab an entry level hybrid style contractor saw for ~ $500 from HD or Sears, or a good used hybrid or contractor saw in the same price range. The Ridgid R4512 and nearly identical Cman 21833 are both made by Dayton. They're billed as "contractor saws" but have relocated the motor from outside the saw to inside the enclosure, much like many hybrid saws, which is an advantage. Both have true riving knives and 1-3/4hp belt drive induction motors. Both have stamped steel wings, an aluminum fence, built in mobile bases, and standard miter slots. These are not at the level of a full 3hp cabinet saw, or even a top end hybrid, but at ~ $500 the majority of owners feel they're getting a capable saw for the money. Some folks are getting the R4512 at 20% off with an HF coupon...you need to find an HD manager who will accept it. The SawStop option is really a personal choice that only you can make. You're correct that you give up a lot of saw to afford the safety feature, but it is a significant feature. Unfortunately, the cheapest option is going to really push your budget, plus you end up with steel wings and a pretty lame fence....the base saw is otherwise well made, though not comparable to a 3hp industrial cabinet saw. Your neighbor's saw would be the R4511 hybrid, made by Steel City/Orion, and is no longer made. The Craftsman 22116 is made by Steel City/Orion and shares the same guts, but offers a full enclosure and a better fence. Steel City offers a model 35950 that's similar to the 22116. Nice saws but run a little steep when you compare what you get with a Griz G1023RL, though I have seen the 22116 go down as low as $700, but it's rare. The end performance of any of them is largely dependent on setup and blade selection, so you're wise to recognize that good blades cost a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 If I were in your shoes, I'd go one of a couple of different routes. The best saw you can buy for under $1500 is a 3hp cabinet saw....new ones like the G1023RL from Grizzly are < $1300 shipped. All the saw you'll ever need, and are a great value, but do require 220v...a move I doubt you'll ever regret if it's feasible to do. Gobs of power, unflinching, robust, solid as a rock, a pleasure to use, easy to align, and will give good service for decades. The 2nd option is easier and cheaper, but you don't get as much saw. Grab an entry level hybrid style contractor saw for ~ $500 from HD or Sears, or a good used hybrid or contractor saw in the same price range. The Ridgid R4512 and nearly identical Cman 21833 are both made by Dayton. They're billed as "contractor saws" but have relocated the motor from outside the saw to inside the enclosure, much like many hybrid saws, which is an advantage. Both have true riving knives and 1-3/4hp belt drive induction motors. Both have stamped steel wings, an aluminum fence, built in mobile bases, and standard miter slots. These are not at the level of a full 3hp cabinet saw, or even a top end hybrid, but at ~ $500 the majority of owners feel they're getting a capable saw for the money. Some folks are getting the R4512 at 20% off with an HF coupon...you need to find an HD manager who will accept it. The SawStop option is really a personal choice that only you can make. You're correct that you give up a lot of saw to afford the safety feature, but it is a significant feature. Unfortunately, the cheapest option is going to really push your budget, plus you end up with steel wings and a pretty lame fence....the base saw is otherwise well made, though not comparable to a 3hp industrial cabinet saw. The end performance of any of them is largely dependent on setup and blade selection, so you're wise to recognize that good blades cost a bit. I think this is sound advice. IMO buy a saw and buy it for life and the 3hp griz seems to be in the budget and will hold up for longer than we will. I dont agree with buying a smaller saw unless its a last resort and is all that will fit in the budget. I started with a contractors saw and would never want to go back. Sawstop is something I would stay far away from from the time being. Yes its safe but I dont think they are really going to sway to far from the original business model long term. I dont think they are going to be in the manufacturing side for alot longer if they keep going with the political side of the business. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pants Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 . The Griz are fine saws they they come out of the same factory as PM, Jet, Sawstop and others and have some identical features. Cool I didn't know this. I have a Grizzly G0691 and I'm very happy with it, it's dust collection isn't the best, but it's adequate, and the riving knife is very nice and really easy to put on and off. It runs very well. Obviously it doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the more premium saws, but it's also about a thousand bucks cheaper. It has plenty of power, flat surfaces, low vibration and a dead-on fence, basically everything I'd want in a saw. The extension table is a little weak and I do plan to build a better one but that seems pretty endemic in many tablesaws. My first saw was a Delta, sub contractor (TS-350) it was a decent saw for the money, but I outgrew it way too fast. If you're confident you'll be sticking with the hobby, spend the money for decent tools at the outset, that doesn't mean the most expensive, but a decent tool will allow you to grow into it, and you won't outgrow it quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbbauer00 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks for all the good info! It seems people that have the grizzly saws are pleased. I like the idea of the 3hp. 5hp is overkill for me at this point, but my neighbor's 1.75hp struggles a bit on thicker stock. I just need to know that it's a good saw. I think i'll get the grizzly cabinet. I'll post again when I've had some time with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 I have the G0690...no complaints. Good saw, great saw for the money. They're all made in the same Chinese sweatshops anyway. And Griz customer service is very good if you have issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Sawstop is something I would stay far away from from the time being. Yes its safe but I dont think they are really going to sway to far from the original business model long term. I dont think they are going to be in the manufacturing side for alot longer if they keep going with the political side of the business. Don, I don't think I agree with you here. SawStop's contractor saw has gained strong market penetration in only two years. (Especially when you consider it's twice the price of the average saw in that segment.) They are coming out with the benchtop saw mid to end of this year. In 2008 and 2009 SawStop sold more cabinet saws and hybrid saws in the US than any other manufacturer. In 2011 their cabinet saw out-sold PM and Delta combined, selling twice as many cabinet saws in the US than their next competitor. Maybe I'm wacko, but it looks to me like they are gaining strength in the market rather than pulling out of it. At least here in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Don, I don't think I agree with you here. SawStop's contractor saw has gained strong market penetration in only two years. (Especially when you consider it's twice the price of the average saw in that segment.) They are coming out with the benchtop saw mid to end of this year. In 2008 and 2009 SawStop sold more cabinet saws and hybrid saws in the US than any other manufacturer. In 2011 their cabinet saw out-sold PM and Delta combined, selling twice as many cabinet saws in the US than their next competitor. Maybe I'm wacko, but it looks to me like they are gaining strength in the market rather than pulling out of it. At least here in the US. Thats not the point or the issue. I dont know where your numbers come from but I doubt its accurate. The point is that Sawstops business model is to license the product and sit back on the beach in Maui and collect 8% on every saw sold. Their original model failed miserably and without going into the manufacturing side there would be no sawstop period, just a technology sitting on a shelf. Being owned by lawyers they are smart enough to realize the money is not in making saws, it in the licensing. The manner in which they are going after legislation is a purely brilliant business move. The high sales of the current line up and the statisics of improved safety make the financial loss of manufacturing just another feather in their cap. Once the licensing is forced upon manufacturers like ryobi, powermatic, griz there will be no need to continue production. Right now they have a monopoly on their technology but once the others are forced by the federal government there will be no need to continue in fact it would become a huge loss with all the competition. I dont really see this as all that far off. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADrywallScrew Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Is there any precedent set where there is legislation for mandating a change to a product is based on a patented technology? If flesh sensing technology is a requirement at some point, I'm curious to see if table saw manufacturers would be required to license from Sawstop. From a personal standpoint, I don't own a table saw at this point but I'm just getting into woodworking and I won't consider anything other than a Sawstop. That's just a personal viewpoint. The politics of the situation wouldn't change my mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Is there any precedent set where there is legislation for mandating a change to a product is based on a patented technology? If flesh sensing technology is a requirement at some point, I'm curious to see if table saw manufacturers would be required to license from Sawstop. In a word, no. And such legislation would not go forward unless there are alternative sources for flesh sensing technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 In a word, no. And such legislation would not go forward unless there are alternative sources for flesh sensing technology. We already have the beginnings of case law in the works. Even if we don't get legislation soon we are going to see case law piling up. I dont see it as very long before the supreme court rules on liability without the technology. Then comes the class actions, then possibly legislation. I would bet that its going to start off small with schools and then move to industry before the consumer market but they are well on their way. My little brother is the engineer that designs many of the Ryobi tools and right now they are running a bit scared and are even considering going with sawstop. My concern with buying from sawstop is the long term. I buy a tablesaw for life and would hope that the company will out live me. If sawstop stops production are they going to continue to service what they sold? We already see issues with Griz that is made in the same factory as everyone else not being able to provide repair parts, I dont see it going real smooth if SS can move away from manufacturing. Personally I dont care either way if they legislate or not but I do see SS moving as fast as they can to get their product under the table of every saw sold in the US. Might even be a good thing but with competition and no diversity I dont think the manufacturing side is long for this world. It really doesnt matter to SS because their ultimate model is licensing not manufacturing. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB1 Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Meanwhile, back on topic... I haven't heard anything but good reviews on the Grizzly cabinet saws and the price is good. I wouldn't go for a contractor saw again. I work in a small one car garage which also stores my motorcycles and other stuff so mobility is the name of the game for me. One of the biggest annoyances in a contractor saw is that I can't push it against the wall because the motor hangs out the back. The other big annoyance is the dust collection is pretty bad. It can be remediated some but not near what any cabinet saw can do out of the box. If you are going to be stationary, I'd say build or buy and outfeed table too. It's a pain working with outfeed roller stands and sawhorses all the time and if you aren't going to move it around a lot, that's probably in the top 5 add ons you want to look into... JMHO -Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADrywallScrew Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 My concern with buying from sawstop is the long term. I buy a tablesaw for life and would hope that the company will out live me. If sawstop stops production are they going to continue to service what they sold? We already see issues with Griz that is made in the same factory as everyone else not being able to provide repair parts, I dont see it going real smooth if SS can move away from manufacturing. Personally I dont care either way if they legislate or not but I do see SS moving as fast as they can to get their product under the table of every saw sold in the US. Might even be a good thing but with competition and no diversity I dont think the manufacturing side is long for this world. It really doesnt matter to SS because their ultimate model is licensing not manufacturing. Don That is a concern, especially since there is electronics and non standard replaceable parts(the brake) involved. That's a judgement call each person has to make. But, I'm not sure I'm following why you think they want to get out of the manufacturing game. After the initial licensing attempts with the big players didn't work they built their own saw. Turns out people wanted it and they built a business around it. The business works and seems to be successful. While they would probably still license, I don't see why they would stop making their own saws. They have built a company with name cache and are looking into other areas beyond the table saw. Their flesh sensing patents will expire sometime in the next decade, but the tool company could last 50 years. I can't see them torpedoing a successful company even if Delta, Ryobi and Powermatic start licensing their technology. People will still buy Sawstop believing they are best of breed saws. They can have their cake and eat it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 People will still buy Sawstop believing they are best of breed saws. . Their all just Geetech saws no matter what color they are. Their all in the sack with each other, may be some subtle differences but the color of the paint is the biggest. They are all paying each other for the newest innovations, thats how the tool business works now days. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Two or three years ago, I flew out to the Williamsport Grizz showroom, and ran my fingers across nearly every machine they make. I think they're plenty good tools, IF you stay on the mid to higher end of their lines. That said, I see used, but nearly new, Grizzly cabinet saws pretty regularily on the local Craigslist and Bargain Shoppers, at prices approaching new Rigid and Bosch jobsite saws. Many include aftermarket mitre gauges, blades, zero clearance inserts, etc... My only guess is that they're bought by new hobbyists who end up not staying with the craft. Suggest checking around for a bit, see if your area has similar conditions. On the SawStop subject... After getting significant "stick time" with a SawStop ICS in November and December, I am in the process of selling the very nice General 650 that's served me very well for 10-11 years. Crossing my fingers for a showing tonight. If you don't want a SawStop, you may very well find a nice General 350 or 650, PM2000, or Unisaw, for sale in your area by someone with the same line of thinking, for the price of a new Grizz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Thats not the point or the issue. I dont know where your numbers come from but I doubt its accurate. My information comes from the Acme Tool Catalog (Fall of 2011), It is echoed by the Acme Tool Reps who do sell all brands of Table Saws. The same information appeared in Fine Homebuilding Magazine. The same information was also given to me at a tool seminar taken at Woodsmith. I think those are 4 fairly reputable sources? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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