Ken Wilsbach Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I would recomend watching for sales and watching the classifieds while you decide what tools you need. You never know what kind of sales you will come across and you can sometimes stack a lot of store discounts together, ex demo model discount ontop of a sale price with a store gift card on purchases over xxx amount. Or what kind of deals you can find in the classifieds, if the seller knows little about the tool they can greatly underestimate the value of it or unfortunatly overestimate it. You can find quality used tools if your welling to spend the time and know a little about them or how to work the google. Don't be afriad of buying cheaper tools (they're not all crap) in order to get you by until you upgrade later on, store brand tools can come on sale for extremly low prices compared to the better quality brand name tools, often thier price plus the price of the better tool (which you managed to hold off getting until you found a deal to good to pass up) will be the same or less then the better tool buy its self. You can also see just how much you actually use the tool, maybe it turns out you don't even use it or you find out that you use it for everything and want to go top of the line for its replacement, example bisquit joiner i got a master craft one for $46 vs $850 for a festool domino. Turns out I don't like bisquits, and have yet to use the thing, but at one time I really thought I needed one. The point is its hard to know what tools you will use and how much you will use them if you do. I would also suggest building your first projetcs out of pine, its cheap so it doesn't hurt as bad when you mess up and it can end up looking quite nice its also has the added advantage of comming in convient shapes and sizes so you don't need a planer or a jointer to get started, so you can put that money aside until you find a really good deal on one. Plus its good practice for finishing and will demonstate the need for proper sanding, grain raising, making sure your shop insn't full of dust thats gonna settle in your finish. My recommendations for tools to start with are a good table saw with a flat cast iron top, a sled for the table saw, a plunge router, a quality square and tap measure, ear muffs, dust mask, a quality saw blade, the 40 router bit sets that the block store sell for $80-ish are not a bad place to start and will let you see which bits you use and you can replace them as you go alone with high end bits (check store reviews on the quality), just stay away from the no name chinese bits they break, a set of block store drill bits its always good to have a cheap-ish set of drill bits (read reviews as these vary alot in quality and they do paint the less common sizes to match the other ones, thats why they break so easy, but they're cheap and you can replace them with better bits as you need to), and you need CLAMPS CLAMPS CLAMPS there is a reason Mark has so many of them and these can very wildly in quality i have a bunch of Mastercraft Clamps and find them to be pretty good on sale i got like 16 of them for the price of 2 of the K body bessey clamps, I will upgrade down the road as i still need more clamps anyway but for now they work. Anyway the important thing is too start building and see what tools you need you hit the nail on the head. it's really fun to make a large price order and go "weeeeeeeeeeeee", but not knowing where i'll end up being in the next year could mean a huge waste of cash! i think i'm going to get the grizzly hybrid table saw since the table saw is going to get a large amount of use. that along with the dewalt router set. And of course a dust collector. i'm going to spend a little more on wood in the beginning to get surfaced wood and perhaps buy the dewalt planer if i really need one, depending on the quality of wood from the supplier. turn out a few projects and see where this takes me. and obviously purchase a large amount of clamps! I can't rely on lowes for those quality squares though, are there any really highly recommended woodwork stores online that i should be looking at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I can't rely on lowes for those quality squares though, are there any really highly recommended woodwork stores online that i should be looking at? There's a thread on squares going in the general forum right now... http://woodtalkonline.com/topic/6694-thinking-of-steping-up-to-a-starrett-combo-square/ Gotta love a Starrett square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 There's a thread on squares going in the general forum right now... http://woodtalkonlin...t-combo-square/ Gotta love a Starrett square. i don't think i need to jump into a top of the line model. a good beginner set would be nice. but i also want to go to a "one stop shop" and pick up a few things like hand planes, goggles, respirator, and some of the other necessary new shop items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Think about it this way. You need to be able to make square flat stock. Your not going to buy it off the shelf, or by the time you relieve it, it wont be any more. For this you need machines or you need to be good with hand tools. In order to set up those machines you need accurate squaring devices or if you choose the hand tool route accurate lay out devices. There is no substitue for properly milled stock. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Think about it this way. You need to be able to make square flat stock. Your not going to buy it off the shelf, or by the time you relieve it, it wont be any more. For this you need machines or you need to be good with hand tools. In order to set up those machines you need accurate squaring devices or if you choose the hand tool route accurate lay out devices. There is no substitue for properly milled stock. Don so surfaced wood and the dewalt planer should do the trick. a little later as i get into things a bit more i can pick up a larger jointer and work with rough wood. i definitely want accurate squaring devices, but from reading the thread there are other, cheaper, options that are equally as accurate as the starret square, even if they don't "feel as nice" in hand. i'm taking everything in... i've already got the go ahead on that planer/jointer. i just don't think i need to dive in that big and that fast, before getting a taste of things. And i don't really want to destroy my budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Nothing is more frustrating than trying to build with out-of-square stock. What Don is saying is that although S2S and S3S comes out of the mill squared on two or three sides, it no longer will be by the time you bring it home. It's gonna bow and warp during shipment...it's inevitable. So running it through the planer will only give you a bowed and warped board with parallel faces. Gotta have the jointer too or be a stud with hand planes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 and of course quality hand planes are not the cheapest thing either. and i'd obviously love to get building things and neglect hand tool skills for a wee bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you go to grizzly they have some decent machinist squares that are faily cheap and 123 blocks that are affordable. A 123 block can be used to check your cheap squares. I have an elcheapo HD empire that is dead on but without the 123 block or other device there is no way to tell. The 123 block will give you an affordable device to set up your machines. As far as the planer and jointer go. Are you sure you understand what they do and how they work hand in hand. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you go to grizzly they have some decent machinist squares that are faily cheap and 123 blocks that are affordable. A 123 block can be used to check your cheap squares. I have an elcheapo HD empire that is dead on but without the 123 block or other device there is no way to tell. The 123 block will give you an affordable device to set up your machines. awesome, i'll take a look! As far as the planer and jointer go. Are you sure you understand what they do and how they work hand in hand. Don perhaps not? the jointer is used to create a straight, and ultimately, 90 degree to another plane, surface on an edge and single surface. the planer is used to then plane the opposite, non-joinered, surface to be flat. the other edge can be done on a table saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Woodguy Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 and of course quality hand planes are not the cheapest thing either Not necessarily...bought an old Stanley Bailey #5 off a guy on Craigslist for supercheap that I restored and absolutely love that thing. Old hand planes (that are worth the time) may take a bit of work to restore, but it's honestly good education to learn how and time well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Not necessarily...bought an old Stanley Bailey #5 off a guy on Craigslist for supercheap that I restored and absolutely love that thing. Old hand planes (that are worth the time) may take a bit of work to restore, but it's honestly good education to learn how and time well spent. honestly, i'd really like to get started on a project w/o having to restore tools. As awesome as it would be to purchase a bunch of older items and clean them up, it's not what i want to do first thing. it's also a reason why i don't particularly want to jump into the hand tool realm. I'd rather spend 10 hours working surfaced wood than 10 hours surfacing wood (more or less depending on how well i do). I would love to get involved with hand tools, just not right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Not to hijack a thread, but I remember the first few of my projects. I purchased the lumber from the indoor slumber yard, brought it home, cut it with a jig saw and sanded the edges smooth, used a drill for about 8 screws before it died, and screwed the remaining 32 screws in by hand. (The next day I purchased a rechargeable cordless screwdriver... since this was shortly after they had been introduced there weren't many options.) I made a decent set of shelves (not high quality furniture, but it lasted for a while... until I traded it for a dresser.) using a total of three tools. I also had the shop cut my lumber to the lengths I needed to start with. this took some time at first trying to figure out how many cuts, how long each piece was to be, and what pieces could come from which board. This was because some lumber yards allow a certain number of cuts free, and charge for the rest. Being cheap at the time (okay, still cheap but can afford somewhat better wood), I wanted to make sure I didn't pay more than I had to. I actually argued with the guy on the floor, because he wanted to cut two pieces from the same board, and I had already worked out the cut list to be different. Partly pricing, partly better usage of the material. In the end, he grabbed another board, cut off my required piece, and didn't charge me for it, since it was his error. Most recently, I attempted an outdoor table using nothing but clamps, a hand miter saw, and a 3/8" drill. (I have some issues levelling the legs, so I won't mention those tools just yet.) Before you decide to spend all of your money, try getting one or two tools that you will use often to make a project. For example, get a couple of 2x4s, use that circular saw, and make a couple of saw horses to break down plywood. Get a couple of sheets of plywood and make a tool cabinet (might I suggest the viewing the videos for it here?) to store some of your tools in while you build up your shop. As for what I'd spend my 2 grand on.... Assuming I have about one car's worth of space in a garage, and that it will need to be mobile or tucked along the edges... (no particular order... just what I'm thinking of at the moment.) 1) Random Orbit Sander. 2) 1/2" Router (preferably one that has either a combo base set or can be removed from it's base so you can install it into a table later.) 3) Good Drill. I'd recommend a corded one, but a decent cordless one with longer battery life will be worth it's weight in gold later. 4) lunchbox type planer. Even if you upgrade later to a full size, you can still use the lunchbox as your "rough plane" start. 5) Decent miter saw. Either hand or corded. You don't always need a table saw for everything, especially if you purchase your lumber already dimensioned. 6) Dust Collection. Even if it's just a basic shop vacuum and simple hose, get something now. Factor in placement of the vacuum, how often it will need to be dumped, single stage, two stage, or more, even power requirements in now. You can always stick with a cannister vacuum modified into a tool-based vacuum for specific locations (I've got one dedicated to my lathe only). 7) Good or better blades / bits / cutter heads. Sometimes a basic tool can be turned into a fantastic one with the right blade. Sometimes a great tool can be turned into a donkey with a bad one. Spend your money on this category wisely. In fact, it might be better to stay with smaller tools until you decide what area of woodworking you want to delve into, but absolutely spend good and quality money here. many a woodworker has given up simply because they didn't get a good blade, and it thrashed their 'starter dream project.' 8) Education. yes, knowledge as a tool. Take a class. Buy a book. Subscribe to a membership based learning area. (Hand Tool School, Wood Whisperer Guild, Basement Junkies, whatever.) It will be money well spent. Plus, you might learn more that you can do with less. (not to mention meeting people, and "test driving" equipment before you buy it. The point being that you don't need all the tools in the world to make something. You'll add to your tools, sell off a few, and change over others as time goes by. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 honestly, i'd really like to get started on a project w/o having to restore tools. As awesome as it would be to purchase a bunch of older items and clean them up, it's not what i want to do first thing. it's also a reason why i don't particularly want to jump into the hand tool realm. I'd rather spend 10 hours working surfaced wood than 10 hours surfacing wood (more or less depending on how well i do). I would love to get involved with hand tools, just not right off the bat. It's been my experience, and admittedly that's always going to be different than everybody else's, that most people who buy and restore hand planes didn't start out doing that. They started with only a couple (for example, Groz, Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley / Veritas, Stanley) that they purchased or acquired in "ready to go" condition, and developed a love affair with them. My first hand plane experience was not good. I used the shop hand planes in junior high, and turned a 4 inch wide board into an inch and a half, and still never got it square. But purchasing one from, say, Veritas or Lie Nielsen, you get one that is set up to use right out of the box, and you don't fight it while learning to use it. Then you might be more inclined to purchase a "beater" and fix it up, partly because you already know how it's supposed to feel. You can also trade your time for initial cost when fixing it up (using that old adage "time is money"), so you know - on later planes, maybe not your first one - what you are getting a plane for. I was surprised at first to find that I did need three grades of planes, just like sandpaper. Now, it's just a matter of deciding which plane to set up which way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 the jointer is used to create a straight, and ultimately, 90 degree to another plane, surface on an edge and single surface. the planer is used to then plane the opposite, non-joinered, surface to be flat. the other edge can be done on a table saw. No you have the idea. Now you just have to put it all together and learn about the wood part and how wood does its own thing wether you like it or not. Personally Id go back to your original idea of the griz saw and jointer with the dewalt if you dont want to break the bank on power tools. You will get more done quicker and get a jump start on your projects. Take the time to set the machines up as best they can be and start building. I'm not a hand tool guy so understand just wanting to get in and start making sawdust. I think with those three machines and your msc small power tools you will be just fine until you out grow them, which may be never if you dont get to deep into the hobby. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 it's amazing how much I teeter back and forth on the subject. last night i was pretty set on getting the laguna combo and grizzly hyrbid. that leaves me with enough for a router... and nothing else. i understand the value of buying the best you can as you can. but how far will i get with the combo, tablesaw and router? and no clamps... no bits... no dust collector, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 It's not gonna happen overnight, Brother. A shop is something that is accumulated and evolves over a lifetime. If I were in your shoes, I think with your three grand and your desire to start right away, a decent balance could be struck by starting with this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P Then adding this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72-Jointer-3-HP-w-Mobile-Base-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0656P Throw in a Dewalt lunchbox planer, and that should leave you plenty of cash for a router, some clamps, and a few other odd and ends. You can do a bunch of projects with that collection of tools. Later on add a bandsaw and build a router table, and the sky's the limit. All the rest of the tools can be added slowly but surely as you progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 It's not gonna happen overnight, Brother. A shop is something that is accumulated and evolves over a lifetime. If I were in your shoes, I think with your three grand and your desire to start right away, a decent balance could be struck by starting with this: http://www.grizzly.c...-Series-/G0715P Then adding this: http://www.grizzly.c...-Series-/G0656P Throw in a Dewalt lunchbox planer, and that should leave you plenty of cash for a router, some clamps, and a few other odd and ends. You can do a bunch of projects with that collection of tools. Later on add a bandsaw and build a router table, and the sky's the limit. All the rest of the tools can be added slowly but surely as you progress. those are the exact items I've decided on. though, i did consider the cheaper http://www.grizzly.c...6-Jointer/G0654 as i couldnt see a real difference between the two other than fence height being slightly more w/ the polar bear. actually, i see you posted the 8", i'd be looking at a 6" getting an 8" and the dewalt planer pretty much leaves me at the same price as the 10" laguna combination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Go with the separate machines and the 8" jointer. You'll thank yourself later...really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Go with the separate machines and the 8" jointer. You'll thank yourself later...really. that leaves me with the same financial conundrum unless i up my budget, again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 The money you save going with the 6" jointer you'll lose in lumber waste with the 6" jointer. The difference between the 6" and 8" is significant...it's worth the extra investment. Just trying to help you think long term...since this a long term commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 The money you save going with the 6" jointer you'll lose in lumber waste with the 6" jointer. The difference between the 6" and 8" is significant...it's worth the extra investment. Just trying to help you think long term...since this a long term commitment. you're very right. the difference is only slight when all things are considered. This money is basically tax refund money, of which there is a good amount of... my wonderful wife made mention that she is also receiving money back from the last two years and that it increases what she can "spend" from our allotted budget. so i think that increases my budget w/o getting the mean look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 you're very right. the difference is only slight when all things are considered. This money is basically tax refund money, of which there is a good amount of... my wonderful wife made mention that she is also receiving money back from the last two years and that it increases what she can "spend" from our allotted budget. so i think that increases my budget w/o getting the mean look. if she is a crafty person i think you should get her a scroll saw to make projects with. my ex used to use my scroll saw more then i did and after we broke up she tried to take it with her saying it was hers since she likes it more then me. i see them all the time and i bought myself a realy nice 250- 300 doller scroll saw for 70 bucks out of the paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fah-Fah-Fooey Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 here is a link to an article Marc wrote on 6 vs 8 inch jointers www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/6-or-8-jointer/ I hope that works i had to copy it from google, woodwhisperer isn't loading at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 just received 10 books from a coworker who made the attempt to get into wood working a couple years back. She decided she'd make a poor craftsman. Along with those books she has some power tools she's looking to get rid of, cheap. She mentioned she purchased from sears, so they're probably crapsman...er, craftsman tools. I know of at least a router and table saw. i'll have pictures next week of what she has and hopefully a price. while the quality of the machines is not necessarily what I want, I can't deny the deal. it will allow me to get started with some stuff and take a little more time and care contemplating and researching what i want to upgrade to. it'll also give me the ability to maybe purchase a more expensive tool, such as a 10" jointer. so that is some good timing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 just received 10 books from a coworker who made the attempt to get into wood working a couple years back. She decided she'd make a poor craftsman. Along with those books she has some power tools she's looking to get rid of, cheap. She mentioned she purchased from sears, so they're probably crapsman...er, craftsman tools. I know of at least a router and table saw. i'll have pictures next week of what she has and hopefully a price. while the quality of the machines is not necessarily what I want, I can't deny the deal. it will allow me to get started with some stuff and take a little more time and care contemplating and researching what i want to upgrade to. it'll also give me the ability to maybe purchase a more expensive tool, such as a 10" jointer. so that is some good timing! Just be carefull what you buy. Don't buy the tools just to get because its a good deal it will more than likely end up causing frustration and costing you more money down the road, believe me I have been there. 3k is a very good starting budget for most hobbyist. You have the opportunity to buy tools right the first time albeit it might be at a slower pace. It will also mean that you don't feel like you will have to upgrade 3 or 4 years from now. If you have 220v and the space I would not even waste my time and money with 110 hybrid saw but jump right into a full size cabinet saw, with some very good blades and plenty of safety equiment like grr-ripper. If you can get your lumber milled locally I would opt for that and hold off on a jointer and planer and instead get some good dust collection and things like sanders, clamps, squares. I know people who swear by pocket holes and make some very nice stuff in a short amount of time. If your goal is to start building, then using pocket holes is a good way to see and very quick return on investment. In the interest of full disclosure, my shop has gone through a few progressions since I started a couple years ago. I no longer have a table and recently started using more and more festool tools but that's a whole other conversation. Good luck! James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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