Ken Wilsbach Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 so it's looking like the table saw is this: http://www.sears.com.../p-00924883000P and an unknown ryobi router and router table (attached image) are these worth picking up? what would be the max you'd offer for both machines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SignWave Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have a similar table saw, without the 'wings', which I got as a christmas gift. Based on my experience with it, I'd definitely pass on this one. Just about every feature is more ornamental than functional. The fence is flimsy and inaccurate, the miter slot is an odd size with some tabs to hold the miter gauge which tends to bind. The blade guard would not stay aligned with the blade, so it's just about imossible to use. The motor is underpopwered (the 'developed HP' is a marketing number). This TS might be marginally functional, but I think it would be frustrating at best, and not very safe due to the size and difficulty aligning the fence and blade guard. I don't have personal experience with the router or table, but it's probably a 1/4" only collet router based on the "max HP" number (also a marketing number), which will be quite limiting. There isn't much to the 'table' that you couldn't do with a piece of laminated MDF or melamine. The 'fence' is too narrow to be useful, though you could build another one easy enough. Still, I'd pass on this also. You'd be better off with a decent router and a shop made table/fence, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 You'll hear some arguments to the contrary, but the general consensus among most woodworkers is that the table saw is the cornerstone of most shops. It's not a tool that I'd skimp on. Buy a good one, and cut corners somewhere else. If you were only going to pay top-dollar for one machine for your shop, my advice would be to spend it on the table saw. The Ryobi router and table is probably good enough, and it's easily upgraded in the future if you don't like it. And you can always keep the router as a spare when you do upgrade...you can never have enough routers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Don't waste your money! I have been there before, trust me it's not worth it. Get what you want first or at least something you will happy with for an 5-7 years. My new thought process on tool purchases is I ask myself "Will I still want and have this tool 5 years from now" If the answer is no than I don't buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 this is what i was figuring, and hoping i'd hear. lets be honest... spending money on some pretty, and new, tool is more exciting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 this is what i was figuring, and hoping i'd hear. lets be honest... spending money on some pretty, and new, tool is more exciting Getting what you want now is a much better option. According to your original post your budget is between 2-3k, which is a good amount for initial shop setup. There has been some good advice on this thread so far. If you have 220v or the capacity for 220 and are set on getting a table saw then spend the money on a good cabinet. The Grizzly saws are very good from what I have heard, I don't own a Grizzly cabinet saw but do own one of there bandsaws and am very happy with it. I have also been the Grizzly store here in WA and have taken a good look at most of their tools and the fit and finish on all of their cabinet saws seemed pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Getting what you want now is a much better option. According to your original post your budget is between 2-3k, which is a good amount for initial shop setup. There has been some good advice on this thread so far. If you have 220v or the capacity for 220 and are set on getting a table saw then spend the money on a good cabinet. The Grizzly saws are very good from what I have heard, I don't own a Grizzly cabinet saw but do own one of there bandsaws and am very happy with it. I have also been the Grizzly store here in WA and have taken a good look at most of their tools and the fit and finish on all of their cabinet saws seemed pretty good. i know i really should invest in the cabinet saw, but unfortunately i do have to limit myself to the hybrid. I'll splurge a little on the 8" jointer though. we'll be running 60 amps out to the garage and wiring in all new outlets for the shop equipment and lights. hopefully that will begin in the next few weeks as i believe we're running going to run a trench and conduit instead of following the existing wiring... which is horrible and connecting via a 1x8 running between the house and garage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Just out curiousity why do you have to limit yourself to a hybrid? I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you were looking for a jointer planer combo. I have heard that Rikon Planer/Jointer combo is decent, I think Wilbur Pan has this combo and seems to like it. It may be worth a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Just out curiousity why do you have to limit yourself to a hybrid? I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you were looking for a jointer planer combo. I have heard that Rikon Planer/Jointer combo is decent, I think Wilbur Pan has this combo and seems to like it. It may be worth a look. money reasons, mainly. a cabinet table saw is way more than a hybrid. I also have space concerns since it will be in a 1.5 car garage that still needs to fit a car for maintenance. so i need things to be movable to a degree so i can push stuff up against a wall, and bring stuff out when i'm working on a project. the other monkey wrench is the wife. this is an expensive hobby to get into, so jumping into it full force w/ no background/experience in furniture making makes it tough for her to be ok w/ the expenditure of a 1k+ saw, 1k+ in jointer and planer, router, etc. i can blow up my budget a little bit, but not cabinet saw blow up haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 May I suggest holding off on the table saw for a bit then? maybe halfway through your first project, start looking at what you needed on this project, and go from there. This will allow you to 1) save the big purchase as a "reward" for completing something, 2) earn a little interest on a project, 3) point you in the right direction tool wise, 4) shed some light as to the space you use and where the tool will end up. I'll catch a lot of heat for saying this, but I don't think every shop absolutely needs a table saw. But I cannot deny just how useful and central to most shops it can be. Couple of options to consider when laying out your shop: check out Shannon Rodger's shop here, and Bob Rozaieski's shop. Admittedly, this is showing my Neanderthal tendencies... but it's a place to start looking into shops in small spaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 May I suggest holding off on the table saw for a bit then? maybe halfway through your first project, start looking at what you needed on this project, and go from there. This will allow you to 1) save the big purchase as a "reward" for completing something, 2) earn a little interest on a project, 3) point you in the right direction tool wise, 4) shed some light as to the space you use and where the tool will end up. I'll catch a lot of heat for saying this, but I don't think every shop absolutely needs a table saw. But I cannot deny just how useful and central to most shops it can be. Couple of options to consider when laying out your shop: check out Shannon Rodger's shop here, and Bob Rozaieski's shop. Admittedly, this is showing my Neanderthal tendencies... but it's a place to start looking into shops in small spaces. certainly not a bad idea. I built my first aquarium stand with a cheap plastic miter box, an old dull miter saw, two clamps... and some luck. along with big store poplar bits. i suppose, since i do have time, i'll look into that path. any recommendations as to what to start looking at to get into that? yikes, hand tools are quite costly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 picking up an older rockwell 34-761, a Milwaukee panel saw and Jet DC unit this evening. http://s21.photobuck...nt=IMG_0800.jpg http://s21.photobuck...nt=IMG_1261.jpg http://s21.photobuck...nt=IMG_0614.jpg he's selling the three together for $700, assuming everything is in proper working condition, is this a good deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcustoms Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 looks like a good find! You might have to talk to these people about getting new bags for the dust collector. That panel saw looks like it will be really nice to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 looks like a good find! You might have to talk to these people about getting new bags for the dust collector. That panel saw looks like it will be really nice to have. thanks, i'll def look into getting replacement bags. the thing that sort of sucks is the size of the DC... it's about 5' wide and 7' tall! which, is way over sized for the garage it'll be in, but i guess you can't have too much dust collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 those panel saw sell for alot of money you might be able to find someone to buy just that and get some money back. and i dont know what brand dust collector that is but that is a big unit and if the hp is as good as its size you will make out like a bandit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 those panel saw sell for alot of money you might be able to find someone to buy just that and get some money back. and i dont know what brand dust collector that is but that is a big unit and if the hp is as good as its size you will make out like a bandit. He's saying it's JET brand. I know i don't need the panel saw, but i can see it being useful... however, maybe not worth keeping if i can get some money from it. would prefer to have a jointer and planer. I should mention it's also being delivered! he's closing up shop and has a uhaul, so i'll be swinging by this evening to help load it and then it's off to my garage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texfire Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you hold off on the buying of tools. Take that some of that money and get a membership to the TWW Guild. Watch the videos and pay attention to which tools Marc has and how he uses them as well as the alternative methods he shows for achieving the same effect with less expensive tools. Take the remainder of that two grand and spend it taking two one week hands on classes, one from a hand tool guru like Roy Underhill or Jim Tolpin, and one from a hybrid or predominantly power tool user like William Ng. Take what you'll learn about how quality tools operate, and tips on how to use those tools from a instructor. Combine that with the research you do on tools and you'll have a much better understanding of what kind of woodworking appeals to you and what kind of tools you actually need. I suspect you'll save money in the long run by starting from a more educated position. Or pick up an entire shop of tools from someone who went out to learn woodworking and got discouraged by making decisions from a position of ignorance. Learn to use those tools and figure out which compromises that they made were poor ones before you buy new tools. Last option is to read all the magazines and get lustful for the latest great thing. Buy that and realize that you still don't know much about woodworking and the why of the tools rather than the how. Guess which one I went with... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 +1 to Texfire. Also, I've found that whenever I've bought more than one tool at a time, I've regretted it. Most tools take a while to set-up, and then you need to use them a bit to "get the knack". If I buy one tool that I'm excited about because I need it for the project I'm doing, then it's fun to set it up and learn how to use it, and I get to complete my project for a nice sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. When I've bought multiple tools on a "deal", it becomes a drag. "I can't work on any fun stuff because first I have to set up, tune up, and figure out all these tools." Once again, rmac said it best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you hold off on the buying of tools. Take that some of that money and get a membership to the TWW Guild. Watch the videos and pay attention to which tools Marc has and how he uses them as well as the alternative methods he shows for achieving the same effect with less expensive tools. Take the remainder of that two grand and spend it taking two one week hands on classes, one from a hand tool guru like Roy Underhill or Jim Tolpin, and one from a hybrid or predominantly power tool user like William Ng. Take what you'll learn about how quality tools operate, and tips on how to use those tools from a instructor. Combine that with the research you do on tools and you'll have a much better understanding of what kind of woodworking appeals to you and what kind of tools you actually need. I suspect you'll save money in the long run by starting from a more educated position. Or pick up an entire shop of tools from someone who went out to learn woodworking and got discouraged by making decisions from a position of ignorance. Learn to use those tools and figure out which compromises that they made were poor ones before you buy new tools. Last option is to read all the magazines and get lustful for the latest great thing. Buy that and realize that you still don't know much about woodworking and the why of the tools rather than the how. Guess which one I went with... already a TWW member, been looking through marc's videos for probably a year off and on. I've also been reading books like crazy lately. I'm really dying to get started on something, so maybe i'm jumping the gun... but I thought the tools were a good deal, and today is the only day as my buddy's lease on the building is up tomorrow. I've a feeling I'm going to be mainly a hybrid user... would really like to become skilled at joinery by hand, but i want to get to that point faster. I think between the DC unit and the table saw, the price is right for me. the panel saw is a bonus item that may see use, or may be sold. +1 to Texfire. Also, I've found that whenever I've bought more than one tool at a time, I've regretted it. Most tools take a while to set-up, and then you need to use them a bit to "get tyhe knack". If I buy one tool that I'm excited about because I need it for the project I'm doing, then it's fun to set it up and leanr how to use it, and I get to complete my project for a nice sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. When I've bought multiple tools on a "deal", it becomes a drag. "I can't work on any fun stuiff because first I have to set up, tune up, and figure out all these tools." Once again, rmac said it best. i'm unable to really set anything up for at least another month, unless i start hauling ass in the garage to clean out a space... so i may end up moving the stuff that needs to be looked through up to the front. I also need to run more electric to the garage, whats there is not suitable. so the question with these tools is not if i should buy them, but if they're worth the price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Woodguy Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 picking up an older rockwell 34-761, a Milwaukee panel saw and Jet DC unit this evening. http://s21.photobuck...nt=IMG_0800.jpg http://s21.photobuck...nt=IMG_1261.jpg http://s21.photobuck...nt=IMG_0614.jpg he's selling the three together for $700, assuming everything is in proper working condition, is this a good deal? Don't know much about panel saws as I don't have any need for one, but it could be very handy for breaking sheet goods down. (Table saw can do it too, but I'm not a fan of the process in my small shop.) Otherwise, you could always sell it as suggested. DC is big, yes...but I'm willing to bet that guy has a lot of kick (I'm too lazy to look up the model right now). If all three tools are well regarded and in great working order, I'd personally consider that a very good deal and could get you started alone with a lot of things. Should you sell the panel saw, even better deal....or just put it towards some table saw accessories or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fah-Fah-Fooey Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I think there worth the price, you should be able to make all your money back on the panel, not sure what that panel saw is worth but they do seem to start at a 1000, this one looks pretty similar http://www.amazon.com/Safety-Speed-Cut-H6-Vertical/dp/B0000224ST/ref=sr_1_15?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1332187403&sr=1-15. For the Cabinet saw, I think it looks fine, not to sure about the fence you may need to upgrade it down the line, but if you get an aftermarket fence you would be able to put that on a new table saw should you decide to upgrade down the line (and buy the new saw without a fence). For the dust collection, as far as i know they pretty much just consist of a motor an impeller and a bag. I would imagine that one has more then enough power for your requirements and you don't need to upgrade to new filters right away I would hold off until you got everything working first. When it comes down to it I would personally go ahead and buy it, it'll get you started and it hard to imagine not being able to get your money back if you sell everything down the line. But i would suggest getting a quality after market miter gauge and a GRR-Ripper and new blades for the saws. Bottom line is you have to start somewhere, and if your willing to put some time cleaning them up I think its a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I think there worth the price, you should be able to make all your money back on the panel, not sure what that panel saw is worth but they do seem to start at a 1000, this one looks pretty similar http://www.amazon.co...187403&sr=1-15. For the Cabinet saw, I think it looks fine, not to sure about the fence you may need to upgrade it down the line, but if you get an aftermarket fence you would be able to put that on a new table saw should you decide to upgrade down the line (and buy the new saw without a fence). For the dust collection, as far as i know they pretty much just consist of a motor an impeller and a bag. I would imagine that one has more then enough power for your requirements and you don't need to upgrade to new filters right away I would hold off until you got everything working first. When it comes down to it I would personally go ahead and buy it, it'll get you started and it hard to imagine not being able to get your money back if you sell everything down the line. But i would suggest getting a quality after market miter gauge and a GRR-Ripper and new blades for the saws. Bottom line is you have to start somewhere, and if your willing to put some time cleaning them up I think its a good deal. cleaning these tools up is not an issue to me, seeing as how they're a good deal and i've got some time from being able to use them in the space. though, i will be testing out the table saw at home to see if the current electric can handle it. I'd like to get involved with building a new aquarium stand for my 20g. would love to do something with wedged tenons... but i think i'll stick with screws and brackets for something that needs to support 260lbs that I built lol I will definitely be purchasing a better quality blade, even though he says this one is fairly new. Most likely everything was used to rip through MDF for subwoofer enclosures. I'm already planning on investing in a better fence and a riving knife for the table saw. i'm really excited to be getting stuff and being able to get started on producing stuff and looking on ebay i found this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Safety-Speed-Vertical-Cut-Panel-Saw-H4-Milwaukee-Heavy-Duty-3-1-4-Max-HP-5800-/330641738421?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfbc88ab5#ht_1775wt_717 so it looks like i'm getting a hell of a deal. hopefully not too good to be true! but i know he's ran out of time for selling this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Not sure I completely agree with your tool purchases but hey it's not my money Just don't see the need for a panel saw, does not make sense in a hobby shop, dust collector looks old and you are talking about upgrading the fence, blade and adding a riving knife (assuming you can find an aftermarket riving knife to fit that saw). Those items will run you between $400-500. It's easy to get caught up in what appear to be great finds on CL but you end up having buyers remorse sometime in the near future. I know you are talking about reselling the panel saw for more but that could end up being more trouble than it's worth. if that was the case someone else would have already bought it from him. I just don't see a huge market for panel saws, especially when you could have a tracksaw instead. Its just my opinion. Good Luck, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fah-Fah-Fooey Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 Not sure I completely agree with your tool purchases but hey it's not my money Just don't see the need for a panel saw, does not make sense in a hobby shop, dust collector looks old and you are talking about upgrading the fence, blade and adding a riving knife (assuming you can find an aftermarket riving knife to fit that saw). Those items will run you between $400-500. It's easy to get caught up in what appear to be great finds on CL but you end up having buyers remorse sometime in the near future. I know you are talking about reselling the panel saw for more but that could end up being more trouble than it's worth. if that was the case someone else would have already bought it from him. I just don't see a huge market for panel saws, especially when you could have a tracksaw instead. Its just my opinion. Good Luck, James I would have to agree that a panel saw is over kill, but if you have the room is sure beats trying to cut sheet goods with a circular saw a 2x4 as a straight edge. I would have to agree that there is probably a lot smaller market for panel saw then there is a track saw and it may take a while to sell depending on what he tries to get for it and how big his surrounding population is, but it doesn't cost anything to list on craigs list or kajiji and as long as he has the room for it he can ask as much as he wants for it and if he sells it for over 700 he's laughing all the way to the bank. I also have to agree that an after market fence can get a little pricey a INCRA TS-LS Table Saw Fence - 32 is 399, but he would be able to keep this fence if he decides to upgrade his saw down the road. For comparison sake the upgraded fence on a Sawstop 1.75hp PCS is 378 (i priced this out a little over a week ago). I also don't believe that there are any 1000 dollar Cabinent saws that come with a fence worth 400, perhaps I am wrong but the fence on saws in this price range tend to be a little flimsy and questionable in accuracy. Yes the dust collector looks old and dusty, but its hard to tell what shape its in from a picture, in fact it does kind of look like it was stuck in the corner and forgotten about since it doesn't appear to be hooked up to anything, perhaps the hose was a tripping hazard and they never ended up using the thing. In the end its scrape's call, he said he was new to woodworking and only had a circular saw and a drill, so a panel saw would be useful (if he has got the room) and the saw is enough to get him started building things and give him a feel for whether he actually likes building things or just the idea of it. I'm sure we all take up various hobbies that we never end up pursuing and its easy to forget all the things we buy and never end up using, sometimes it is better to start out with something cheaper to see if we actually like the hobby and then upgrade down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wilsbach Posted March 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 it's to be expected that there are going to be wildly conflicting opinions and view points. from "buy an entire shop from a discouraged wood worker" to "don't buy anything until you've decided on a project" and i agree and appreciate with all of the view points. The items are now in my garage, and we'll see how i feel when i can around to using the items. I'm sure i'll be upgrading in a couple years regardless, but this way i can get a feel for things. i'll probably end up putting the panel saw on CL, it is quite large and i'd be happy getting most, if not more, than what i spent on everything. i don't mind holding onto it and using it until it sells either. it is a bit much for a hobby shop. if anything, getting these items is going to give me the kick in the ass i need to get the garage space cleared out and get to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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